Self Defense from a Car with Matt Jacques

Does anyone think it's always worth saying "You own that bullet and are responsible for it" or anything similar when dealing with an Imminent Justifiable Homicide Shoot?

Why is it so important to, must say?

If you're in a, imminent JH situation, is it profitable to you to waste even so much as a second to wonder, 'What's behind this BG trying to kill me?' "is granny walking her dog"? "should I let her pass"? "do I have time?" and so on and so forth.

Are those few seconds before needing to act not too precious to waste?

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's a stupid idea or thought process, clearly the statement is correct and truthful. But is it really worth driving home so much so that it might cause someone a precious second they may not have in an Imminent JH Situation?

An example would be someone I know. Not very knowledgeable on Guns/Laws/Carry etc. In EVERY situation we ever talk about, his first words and usually the only thing he can input, is always you better hope you didn't shoot anyone else. it stems from the whole, "you better wait until they are inside your house before you shoot" thinking that he's stated before.

IMO, I think this has stemmed from him hearing MORE about the coulda/shoulda/woulda (The dreadful Civil Suit ) than the actual fact that there might not be anyone to sue if you don't pull the trigger immediately.

Clearly knowing your target and what lies behind it is important, but does it bare the same importance when concerning yourself with concern so much so, that it might lead to your inability to properly defend yourself from an imminent threat, your death?


…anyone?

I think you're on the right track, Hitman, and if I read you right, I'm about the same as you. Knowing your target, foreground, and background is all well and good for calm conditions. It's extremely important, too, in violent confrontations, I would think, but it sure as hell becomes a lot less black-and-white and starts to have factors valuable enough (my freaking /life/) that make it gray. Especially in this context, where I'm shooting from inside a vehicle, my options of shooting angle are a fraction above ZILCH. I'm not going to sit there and succumb to victimization that may include death because I was concerned about the down-range. Think about this, too, you're close enough that you aren't missing unless you **** up, anyways. You're going to shoot through-and-through but there's a LOT less energy in that projo on the exit side, so you got that going for you at least. When it's all said and done, what are the two options here? Shoot, live, protect your family, and you run a small chance of one of your bullets causing minor property damage or possibly injury to a bystander... versus: Be a victim and maybe die, but at least your estate won't be sued?

It's a judgment call that can be quarterbacked and nitpicked to death by people throwing specific scenarios at me to pick apart my "rule of thumb" opinion there, but to me the basic principle is there. Sometimes, too, when putting out video for very-public consumption, you words things in a more "presentable" manner. I take that into consideration any time I'm watching someone's very staged remarks about such a sensitive subject, in a video made for very-wide dissemination.

A handful of pals just got done with a class I was /intending/ to attend before finances and single-parenthood "got in the way" this time around. They had a vehicle portion in that 3-day class, and someone hit 'record' for a bit of the instruction.

This is Dave Merrill of MilCopp Tactical, with Chris Greenfield of Movement To Contact in the passenger seat. Dave is giving some basics on seatbelt info, situational awareness, and some good tips on fighting-from-the-car, that touch on a handful of points that weren't in Mike's video up there.

Yea I think were on the same page.

I like his points about the seatbelt, but the whole 'Getting out of the vehicle' ? seems moot.

If I'm getting attacked, about to be attacked or just got attacked, why would I want to get out of the vehicle in an expedient manner?

Nobody can sue you if you are dead. If your life is about to be taken...shoot.

Hitman said:

If I'm getting attacked, about to be attacked or just got attacked, why would I want to get out of the vehicle in an expedient manner?

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If you're engaging in the fight it can be assumed "hit the gas" was not a viable option.
Fighting sucks from inside a car.
If you can afford the space outside your car door, take it so you can get a better firing position.

But no, that's not always a move ability you can afford. That was a clip brought about from the middle of a conversation, I'm told, so it's missing a bit of context.

Well yea actively in a fight and driving away not being an option and we've got a **** ton of different tactics to go to now.

Guess I was still thinking, Red Light/Parked/Road Rage - Burglary/Assault type situation like the OP Video.

JNieman said:

That was a clip brought about from the middle of a conversation, I'm told, so it's missing a bit of context.

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Yea true. Most likely fighting against another shooter?

I don't want to speak too much for the guys in that video - I just thought there were a few things to glean from it, since he was focusing more on carjacking in a parking area/sport as opposed to the video in the OP which was more framed by a guy running up to you while you're on the street in traffic, it sounded like.

But personally, I can see the merits of trying to remove yourself from the restrictions of being in a car. Once out of the car you then are free to move, seek cover, attain better shooting position, not be a sitting duck, and probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. But yea, that's only if you're able to buy that space to get free, of course. A guy right there in your window... not much else to do but lean back and blast through glass, I guess.

I also felt like linking it for the situational awareness comments about putting your seatbelt on after you're rolling, removing it before you enter your parking spot, which goes well with what the vid you linked talking about how to accommodate the seatbelt when you are carrying.

Paul Gomez had a comment in one of his Youtube videos that I just thought of as well, which was the horrible bit about modern cars automatically unlocking doors when you put it in park. This is easily abused by carjackers coming out from a dark corner or behind an adjacent car, and getting your door open before you have time to react, and then having access to impart violence on you. He mentions that every car manual will have the 'code' for reprogramming various things to do with the locks. For my Silverado, I had to like.. turn the key to accessory, then off, then accessory, then off, flash my brights twice, and pump the brake, or something like that, and then I would push the gas pedal once for Option 1, twice for Option 2, etc on the list of choices on how my auto-locks performed, in the manual. I don't remember the method but it was a crazy combination of gestures.

JNieman said:

I don't want to speak too much for the guys in that video - I just thought there were a few things to glean from it, since he was focusing more on carjacking in a parking area/sport as opposed to the video in the OP which was more framed by a guy running up to you while you're on the street in traffic, it sounded like.

But personally, I can see the merits of trying to remove yourself from the restrictions of being in a car. Once out of the car you then are free to move, seek cover, attain better shooting position, not be a sitting duck, and probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. But yea, that's only if you're able to buy that space to get free, of course. A guy right there in your window... not much else to do but lean back and blast through glass, I guess.

I also felt like linking it for the situational awareness comments about putting your seatbelt on after you're rolling, removing it before you enter your parking spot, which goes well with what the vid you linked talking about how to accommodate the seatbelt when you are carrying.

Paul Gomez had a comment in one of his Youtube videos that I just thought of as well, which was the horrible bit about modern cars automatically unlocking doors when you put it in park. This is easily abused by carjackers coming out from a dark corner or behind an adjacent car, and getting your door open before you have time to react, and then having access to impart violence on you. He mentions that every car manual will have the 'code' for reprogramming various things to do with the locks. For my Silverado, I had to like.. turn the key to accessory, then off, then accessory, then off, flash my brights twice, and pump the brake, or something like that, and then I would push the gas pedal once for Option 1, twice for Option 2, etc on the list of choices on how my auto-locks performed, in the manual. I don't remember the method but it was a crazy combination of gestures.

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By all means I'm glad you did, it’s relevant, were talking about fighting from a vehicle.
I'm a glean machine and I don't turn away knowledge.

I also hate the auto-unlock.

I guess for me I'm still stuck on staying the car b/c of the family. I have pretty much a straight shot to and from work(35 miles) and only have two stop signs on the way.

Pretty much all other times I'm in a vehicle in town (Lake Charles etc) I've got a car full of kids. So you can see why leaving the vehicle is not boding well with my brain housing group

Yea, we're in identical boats there irt family in the vehicle. I don't know about whether or not that changes me leaving my seat. Mainly I envisioned that entailing standing next to the truck because, like you, I sure as **** ain't leaving my boy. But I can see standing up beside my truck being a whole world easier to defend than from inside it, strapped to a seat facing forward-only. I like options - that's all

Not to mention remaining in the vehicle draws fire to the cab of the vehicle. I'd get out as fast as possible with my family in the car if I cannot engage through a window.

goteron said:

Not to mention remaining in the vehicle draws fire to the cab of the vehicle. I'd get out as fast as possible with my family in the car if I cannot engage through a window.

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+1. My goal would be to get Out of the car. If I have to fight my way out I can do that, but I'd much rather be out and moving if possible.

On the foreground / background thing. It's my opinion that if you're dead it's kind of a moot point. If you screw up, you're going to jail. Don't screw up.

If only there were a local place to train shooting from inside of and around vehicles...

Oh wait there is...
http://www.advantagegrouptraining.com

SpeedRacer said:

If only there were a local place to train shooting from inside of and around vehicles...

Oh wait there is...
http://www.advantagegrouptraining.com

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Great plug.


...and highly recommended.

SpeedRacer said:

If only there were a local place to train shooting from inside of and around vehicles...

Oh wait there is...
http://www.advantagegrouptraining.com

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What is your experience of bullet penetration on doors? I always assumed the bullets would zip through a door (talking door skin not necessarily the entire structure) without an issue but I spotted a shot up car at a junk yard yesterday and it had about 50% penetration on some 9mm sized dents/holes.

I'm trying to email myself the pictures now but the phone is slow.

goteron said:

Not to mention remaining in the vehicle draws fire to the cab of the vehicle. I'd get out as fast as possible with my family in the car if I cannot engage through a window.

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Like when? I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which I would be drawing fire to my vehicle.

SpeedRacer said:

If only there were a local place to train shooting from inside of and around vehicles...

Oh wait there is...
http://www.advantagegrouptraining.com

Click to expand...

ZING! You Star-Bellied Sneech You!

Yea, I'm pretty happy about having Advantage Group down here. Now my only constraint is actually getting time away from my son. Before, my other option was that Milcopp Tactical class that happens yearly (so far) near my home town up in Missouri, where several friends go each year. So far I'm been unsuccessful in convincing them to move the class to Louisiana lol.

Buuuuut now I'm trying to pinch pennies to move back to Missouri so blah. Priorities...

er.. On topic: Hitman, drawing fire as in: That guy is shooting at me. If he misses me and my son's behind me, that's bad for my son. I should keep the "line of fire" from intersecting people important to me.

That's my assumption of Goteron's statement... I don't pretend to read minds though.

Meh...I know what drawing fire means....

...just trying to come up with a scenario of when I would be taking fire in such a way that to get out of the vehicle would be the best choice.

03protege said:

What is your experience of bullet penetration on doors? I always assumed the bullets would zip through a door (talking door skin not necessarily the entire structure) without an issue but I spotted a shot up car at a junk yard yesterday and it had about 50% penetration on some 9mm sized dents/holes.

I'm trying to email myself the pictures now but the phone is slow.

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Two words: consistently inconsistent.

In the VTAC class we shot multiple vehicles with various bullet types of 9mm, .40S&W, 5.56, .308 and 12GA. All of the non-bonded/barrier blindrounds did poorly although some punched through. Even the bonded rounds had about a 50% success rate of making it through. There's a lot of reinforced areas, doodads and doohickies inside of car doors that can deflect or even stop a bullet completely. There were also different results depending on which car we were shooting. I don't recall any complete rounds coming out the other side, all were fragmented to varying degrees. Some would just make ouchies, some would still be lethal.

Basic takeaway was that bonded rounds in big calibers worked best but are still a crapshoot. If you ever have to shoot at someone hiding behind a car door, unleash hell and hope for the best.

SpeedRacer said:

Two words: consistently inconsistent.

In the VTAC class we shot multiple vehicles with various bullet types of 9mm, .40S&W, 5.56, .308 and 12GA. All of the non-bonded/barrier blindrounds did poorly although some punched through. Even the bonded rounds had about a 50% success rate of making it through. There's a lot of reinforced areas, doodads and doohickies inside of car doors that can deflect or even stop a bullet completely. There were also different results depending on which car we were shooting. I don't recall any complete rounds coming out the other side, all were fragmented to varying degrees. Some would just make ouchies, some would still be lethal.

Basic takeaway was that bonded rounds in big calibers worked best but are still a crapshoot. If you ever have to shoot at someone hiding behind a car door, unleash hell and hope for the best.

Click to expand...