How Much Money Is LDWF Leaving On The Table?

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    James70458

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    Is it any wonder, after reviewing the facts regarding the fees Louisiana charges compared to Mississippi, why Mississippi is the leader of the two states in so many Wildlife Management Areas? From first hand experiences, Louisiana WMA’s, like the PRWMA (Pearl River Wildlife Management Area), have always struggled through low budgets, and Rangers claim they can’t afford to put rocks on the roadways, or afford to hire enough rangers to cut the grass on trails.

    Many folks from Mississippi come to use the “Honey Island Shooting Range”, which is located within the PRWMA, and for good reason, it’s a whole lot cheaper than using Mississippi’s WMA shooting ranges. That’s right, Louisiana hunters who pay a $15 fee to be able to use the Louisiana WMA’s subsidies Mississippi folks that want to save money and come to Louisiana to use the Range inside our PRWMA.

    Perhaps a look at the facts will shed some light on just how much money Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries leaves on the table. It’s plain it is to see that folks in Mississippi, along with many Louisiana residents, are well aware of deal to be had, and take advantage of Louisiana’s failure to adequately charge those that use our WMA’s and WMA Ranges.

    (Information below was taken from The Mississippi Outdoor Digest (pages 6 and 8).

    MISSISSIPPI WMA FEES vs. LOUISIANA WMA FEES

    • In Mississippi, EVERYONE entering a WMA must purchase a “Wildlife Management Area User Permit” – Resident = $15, Non-Resident $30
    • In Louisiana, only HUNTERS are required to purchase a “WMA Hunting Permit @ $15 – Resident, $15 Non-Resident
    • In Mississippi, if you want to use the Range on a WMA you are required to purchase “Annual Resident Range Permit” @ $40, and Non-Resident @ $80
    • In Louisiana, to use the Range on the PRWMA you are minimally required to purchase “Wild Louisiana Stamp” @ $2 for both Resident and Non-Resident

    JUST HOW MUCH IS LOUISIANA WILDLIFE AND FISHERIES LEAVING ON THE TABLE

    • Using numbers from the “Honey Island Shooting Range” (located inside the PRWMA) they have an average of 20,000 plus users a year

    • Subtracting 25% for youth under 16, that puts the number of paying adults at 15K that use the PRWMA Range (aka Honey Island Shooting Range)

    • Estimates put those paying adults that use the Range that are from Mississippi at 15%

    • If Louisiana simply matched Mississippi, and changed the “WMA Hunting Permit” to the “WMA User Permit”, the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries would rake in an estimated $258,750.00 just from the PRWMA for those using the Range, and that’s without adding in the Bird Watchers, Hikers, etc., just by changing the name and intent of one permit to match Mississippi

    • Then there Mississippi’s “Resident Annual Range Permit” of $40 per year, per person, and the “Annual Non-Resident Range Fee” of $80 per year, per person that Louisiana doesn’t charge, and why so many folks from Mississippi come to the PRWMA Range to shoot.

    • If Louisiana would simple follow Mississippi’s lead, and institute the same fees to use our WMA range at PRWMA the Department of Wildlife and Fisheries would net an estimated $1,530,000.00 more per year just on those using the WMA Range (and this is just from one range)

    • So, what does the LDWF get from the “Honey Island Shooting Range” for being granted the rights to use public land, paid for and supported by hunters, NOTHING! That’s right, the LDWF granted a second 10 year lease to SELFS, Inc (Southeast Louisiana Firearms Safety, Inc.) for the total amount of $0.00 per year!

    • In addition to not collecting the estimated fees of just under 2 million dollars a year, the LDWF pays additionally to continuously repair the roads leading to the PRWMA Range, as those roads have so much more traffic than the roads hunters use.

    It’s a no brainer why folks in Mississippi use the Louisiana WMA Range at PRWMA, it make perfect sense to them because it’s CHEAP. However, anyone with a little bit of common sense is left to wonder why LDWF has created this disparity between bordering state’s fees that has caused our WMA’s to be overused and underfunded.
     

    Magdump

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    Some great points James. Ive hunted abroad a bit and always notice the difference in non resident prices for license and tags, etc. and Louisiana is sportsman's paradise afterall. I've asked a few questions at the hub in BR while getting boat papers done or just visiting the center and no one there seems to give a crock.
     

    kengel2

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    You have some good points, but why all the focus on the range? We finally have a nice, safe, cheap place to shoot. You could easily just rework the numbers and raise the price of non-resident licenses and fees.
     
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    James70458

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    Why not the range?

    You have some good points, but why all the focus on the range? We finally have a nice, safe, cheap place to shoot. You could easily just rework the numbers and raise the price of non-resident licenses and fees.

    Not trying to single out anyone, as the "WMA Usage Permit" would cover all, birdwatchers, hikers, 4 wheelers, and yes those using the range. But the obvious answer to your question is that those that purchase a hunting and fishing license already support the WMA, those that use the range, about 20,000 of them according to their own numbers, don't.

    Fact is the traffic that goes to and from the range causes more LDWF money to be spent on roads than does traffic from hunters, but only the hunters are paying for that. The way things are now, hunters paying "WMA Hunting Permit" fees are already subsidizing those that use the range. So, it just doesn't seem reasonable of Louisiana to ask hunters and fishermen to double down twice and let those using the range have a free ride.

    The LDWF claims they don't have the money properly support the Pearl River WMA (the Honey Island Swamp), so they don't bush hog the trails regularly to provide habitat for turkeys, can't or won't keep up with road repairs, don't plant adequate food plots to support and promote a decent deer population, and on and on... you get the idea.

    Since Mississippi is next door to Louisiana it would make reasonable sense that both states would closely monitor the other's Wildlife regulations and fees, so as not to leave any money on the table, and not to drive business to the other, or away from themselves... businesses do this all the time, it's called competitive intelligence.

    Just imagine what we could do to enhance the wildlife, and infrastructure of the PRWMA with an extra (conservatively calculation) one MILLION in revenue. Here are a few things many of us would love to see done with that money that they could be collecting.

    1) Construction of Handicap Hunting Stands - Especially for Wounded Warriors returning from battle
    2) Boardwalk in the front for tourist - this gives them a place to view the Honey Island Swamp without driving around the hunting areas
    3) Re-open trails that have been abandoned by LDWF because they couldn't keep up with the grass cutting
    4) Bush Hog trails to provide adequate habitat for the turkeys
    5) Plant adequate (both size and plant) food crops to support and increase deer population
    6) Maintain roads properly
    7) Hire an additional maintenance worker to help support the WMA upkeep (one is simply not enough)
     

    James70458

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    Some great points James. Ive hunted abroad a bit and always notice the difference in non resident prices for license and tags, etc. and Louisiana is sportsman's paradise afterall. I've asked a few questions at the hub in BR while getting boat papers done or just visiting the center and no one there seems to give a crock.

    Last year a group of hunting friends and I were having a conversation about where is the best place to shoot a deer for a fast kill shot... some said head, some said heart, and one very old timer, with hundreds of kills to his record spoke up and said, "Mississippi"...
     

    kengel2

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    those that use the range, about 20,000 of them according to their own numbers, don't.

    I use the range and I have a hunting/fishing license, I wonder how many actually have a license.

    Fact is the traffic that goes to and from the range causes more LDWF money to be spent on roads than does traffic from hunters, but only the hunters are paying for that. The way things are now, hunters paying "WMA Hunting Permit" fees are already subsidizing those that use the range.

    Where does all the money go from this?

    "A Louisiana Hunting or Fishing licenses or Wild Louisiana Stamp is required to enter the Wildlife Management Area (WMA). This is not our rule, but a Department of Wildlife and Fisheries rule. You must have one of these to come onto the WMA at any time! These can be obtained online from the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries."

    Everyone using the range has one of these, how does that not help support the LDWF.

    The LDWF claims they don't have the money properly support the Pearl River WMA (the Honey Island Swamp), so they don't bush hog the trails regularly to provide habitat for turkeys, can't or won't keep up with road repairs, don't plant adequate food plots to support and promote a decent deer population, and on and on... you get the idea.

    About the only thing I agree with is road repairs. Plants your own food plots, bring a machete and trim your own trails. This isnt a govt run hunting club, its a WMA, let the wildlife be wildlife.

    Since Mississippi is next door to Louisiana it would make reasonable sense that both states would closely monitor the other's Wildlife regulations and fees, so as not to leave any money on the table, and not to drive business to the other, or away from themselves... businesses do this all the time, it's called competitive intelligence.

    Agree 100%

    One thing I couldnt find was how many people hunted/fished the WMA last year?
     

    Win1917

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    Understand I'm not making the argument that nothing should change. To be intellectually honest though, we can't just take the current number of users, propose fees and then add it all up. For out of state users, if it goes from a $2 to $110 to use the range, The 15% of out of state users will drop practically 0% cause it'll only cost them $65 to use their own ranges. That by itself will swing the numbers 200k+. If residence fees go from $2 to $65, there will be a massive drop in public range use. People will either not go or join a private range since the cost will be in the same ballpark.

    Again, not saying we shouldn't make changes but we need to keep the revenue estimates reasonable.
     

    kengel2

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    Understand I'm not making the argument that nothing should change. To be intellectually honest though, we can't just take the current number of users, propose fees and then add it all up. For out of state users, if it goes from a $2 to $110 to use the range, The 15% of out of state users will drop practically 0% cause it'll only cost them $65 to use their own ranges. That by itself will swing the numbers 200k+. If residence fees go from $2 to $65, there will be a massive drop in public range use. People will either not go or join a private range since the cost will be in the same ballpark.

    Again, not saying we shouldn't make changes but we need to keep the revenue estimates reasonable.

    This is what they want though, they want the range to go away.
     

    James70458

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    I use the range and I have a hunting/fishing license, I wonder how many actually have a license.



    Where does all the money go from this?

    "A Louisiana Hunting or Fishing licenses or Wild Louisiana Stamp is required to enter the Wildlife Management Area (WMA). This is not our rule, but a Department of Wildlife and Fisheries rule. You must have one of these to come onto the WMA at any time! These can be obtained online from the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries."

    Everyone using the range has one of these, how does that not help support the LDWF.



    About the only thing I agree with is road repairs. Plants your own food plots, bring a machete and trim your own trails. This isnt a govt run hunting club, its a WMA, let the wildlife be wildlife.



    Agree 100%

    One thing I couldnt find was how many people hunted/fished the WMA last year?


    Point one... The LDWF Enforcement does NOT check those going to the range for a permit, if they do and the person doesn't have one they do NOT issue citations, so your claim that all those that use the range support the WMA is not reliable, and I would challenge you to prove this claim with facts and numbers. If they were required to have this permit as you say, why does not LDWF require SELFS, Inc (that run the range) to make the shooters show the permit before using the range?

    Point two regarding your "let wildlife be wildlife" --- Perhaps you're not a hunter and only purchase a hunting license to support the WMA, but the "M" in WMA stands for Management, which is what they are paid to do. Guess it's silly of me to expect them to do what they are paid to do. Besides this, the LDWF does grow food crops to "manage" wildlife at other WMA's and encourages private land owners to grow similar food crops to "manage" the herds.

    Point three regarding the "bring a machete and trim own trails. This isn't a govt run hunting club, its a WMA"... it is illegal to cut down trees and such in a WMA, and most of the trails are actually old logging roads that need to be maintained, just not with rocks and such, but need to be open for outdoor activities. Lastly, YES, this is a government run hunting club for all those that pay taxes and buy licenses that can't afford the outrageous dues to belong to a private hunting club... which I suspect might be where you hunt since you obviously know so little about the rules and operations of WMA's.
     

    James70458

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    This is what they want though, they want the range to go away.

    You say..."This is what they want though, they want the range to go away."... who is "they", and why would they want the range to go away? That comment sounds rather paranoid, and frankly I don't subscribe to the Jesse Ventura conspiracy theory club.
     

    kengel2

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    The LDWF Enforcement does NOT check those going to the range for a permit, if they do and the person doesn't have one they do NOT issue citations, so your claim that all those that use the range support the WMA is not reliable, and I would challenge you to prove this claim with facts and numbers. If they were required to have this permit as you say, why does not LDWF require SELFS, Inc (that run the range) to make the shooters show the permit before using the range?

    Nope, they dont check. Ive never been checked for my car insurance, concealed carry, fishing license, hunting license, etc etc. Maybe you should contact LDWF and ask.

    Point two regarding your "let wildlife be wildlife" --- Perhaps you're not a hunter and only purchase a hunting license to support the WMA, but the "M" in WMA stands for Management, which is what they are paid to do. Guess it's silly of me to expect them to do what they are paid to do. Besides this, the LDWF does grow food crops to "manage" wildlife at other WMA's and encourages private land owners to grow similar food crops to "manage" the herds.

    I hunt very little, I dont have a lease of my own. Couldnt really hunt because of work. Maybe your issue is with LDWF providing resources to other WMAs and not Pearl River.

    it is illegal to cut down trees and such in a WMA, and most of the trails are actually old logging roads that need to be maintained, just not with rocks and such, but need to be open for outdoor activities. Lastly, YES, this is a government run hunting club for all those that pay taxes and buy licenses that can't afford the outrageous dues to belong to a private hunting club... which I suspect might be where you hunt since you obviously know so little about the rules and operations of WMA's.

    I didnt say cut trees down, I said trim trails. Cut down the tall grass with a machete. Dont most people use 4 wheelers out there anyway, seems like an overgrown trail wouldnt be that much of an issue. Im not a member of a private hunting club and Ive never notices the trails to be that bad in Pearl River WMA, the ones Ive seen anyway.

    So how many people hunted/fished the WMA last year?
     

    kengel2

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    You say..."This is what they want though, they want the range to go away."... who is "they", and why would they want the range to go away? That comment sounds rather paranoid, and frankly I don't subscribe to the Jesse Ventura conspiracy theory club.

    http://theadvocate.com/sports/outdoors/7522223-123/controversy-brewing-over-pearl-river

    I guess you dont remember all the bs going on when people actually started using the range. Its just that you sound exactly the article.
     
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    James70458

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    Nope, they dont check. Ive never been checked for my car insurance, concealed carry, fishing license, hunting license, etc etc. Maybe you should contact LDWF and ask.



    I hunt very little, I dont have a lease of my own. Couldnt really hunt because of work. Maybe your issue is with LDWF providing resources to other WMAs and not Pearl River.



    I didnt say cut trees down, I said trim trails. Cut down the tall grass with a machete. Dont most people use 4 wheelers out there anyway, seems like an overgrown trail wouldnt be that much of an issue. Im not a member of a private hunting club and Ive never notices the trails to be that bad in Pearl River WMA, the ones Ive seen anyway.

    So how many people hunted/fished the WMA last year?

    Look, this isn't in any way an attack on you personally, but it's obvious you do not know much about hunting on this WMA, as 4 wheelers are not allowed except on one ATV trail and then to recover downed large game.

    As for cutting grass with a machete... speaking for all those that hunt the PRWMA, thanks for the laugh. Don't know many that use machetes anymore.

    Pardon my question, and I only ask because you seem so determined to make this into some "us against them" thing, which it isn't... are you a member of SELFS, Inc, or a range officer at this range? That would be information readers could use to help determine prejudice or not in your responses.

    Myself, I'm a hunter that uses the PRWMA, and know many other hunters that also enjoy hunting in the Honey Island Swamp.
     

    James70458

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    Understand I'm not making the argument that nothing should change. To be intellectually honest though, we can't just take the current number of users, propose fees and then add it all up. For out of state users, if it goes from a $2 to $110 to use the range, The 15% of out of state users will drop practically 0% cause it'll only cost them $65 to use their own ranges. That by itself will swing the numbers 200k+. If residence fees go from $2 to $65, there will be a massive drop in public range use. People will either not go or join a private range since the cost will be in the same ballpark.

    Again, not saying we shouldn't make changes but we need to keep the revenue estimates reasonable.

    You have a point, and most would agree that raising the fees in Louisiana to match those of Mississippi would cause a drop in numbers using our WMA and the Honey Island Shooting Range. That being said, and with all due respect, what is your point?

    As I see it, those that would go to other places were probably the ones that were not purchasing the license anyway, and only using this WMA because it was cheap. The state of Louisiana would be better off with them going somewhere else than having them continue to use Louisiana resources and not contribute to the upkeep of those resources.

    This would only serve to be a right sizing of the range to those that actually support Louisiana WMA's. The drop in numbers would most probably be offset by the increased fees, and the LDWF would be better off for the effort.

    So, again, what was your point, as even if you are correct, which I suspect your "massive drop" calculation is a bit exaggerated, the WMA and the LDWF would be better off, the only thing to suffer a lose in income would be SELFS, Inc... which makes it look like the range is only concerned about themselves, which might explain the "self" part of the name.
     

    kengel2

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    Nope, not a member of selfs. Not a range officer either, I have my own range, but like to use HI when I want to go with a few people. I just notice the divide between Hunter and shooters when it comes to the range. You sound as though you want the range to pay for the whole wma since they have 20,000 users. Those users only use a small portion of the wma, the range is what 6 acres out of the 37,000 and you want them to pay more? Why not just enforce the rules already in place like we talked about above? Make selfs check everyone for the appropriate license and ticket those that don't have it.

    Your welcome for the laugh, I'll keep the machete when a trail needs to be cut. You'll just continue to complain.

    Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk
     

    James70458

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    http://theadvocate.com/sports/outdoors/7522223-123/controversy-brewing-over-pearl-river

    I guess you dont remember all the bs going on when people actually started using the range. Its just that you sound exactly the article.

    Yes, I do remember, and that was me at the LWFC meeting, with many other hunters. We were there because the SELFS, Inc group refused to be good neighbors with hunters and we were following proper procedures since the LWFC is the agency that leases this land for $0 per year. In other words, we went to the landlord.

    If you're trying to call me out, great, I'm darn proud of what I've done to represent the interest of hunters on the WMA's, and will continue to do so when I can. Thanks for bringing that up.
     

    James70458

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    Nope, not a member of selfs. Not a range officer either, I have my own range, but like to use HI when I want to go with a few people. I just notice the divide between Hunter and shooters when it comes to the range. You sound as though you want the range to pay for the whole wma since they have 20,000 users. Those users only use a small portion of the wma, the range is what 6 acres out of the 37,000 and you want them to pay more? Why not just enforce the rules already in place like we talked about above? Make selfs check everyone for the appropriate license and ticket those that don't have it.

    Your welcome for the laugh, I'll keep the machete when a trail needs to be cut. You'll just continue to complain.

    Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


    You say "complain" we say continue to work with the LDWF and strive for positive change to improve the quality of wildlife and recreational enjoyment of our State's land resources, which we refer to as WMA's. Thanks for sharing with us. Although we might not agree, we certainly enjoy lively debates and learning from each other. Have a wonderful day sir.
     

    Pepperidge

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    Not trying to single out anyone, as the "WMA Usage Permit" would cover all, birdwatchers, hikers, 4 wheelers, and yes those using the range. But the obvious answer to your question is that those that purchase a hunting and fishing license already support the WMA, those that use the range, about 20,000 of them according to their own numbers, don't.

    Fact is the traffic that goes to and from the range causes more LDWF money to be spent on roads than does traffic from hunters, but only the hunters are paying for that. The way things are now, hunters paying "WMA Hunting Permit" fees are already subsidizing those that use the range. So, it just doesn't seem reasonable of Louisiana to ask hunters and fishermen to double down twice and let those using the range have a free ride.
    Try posting factual information next time: You have to have either a hunting fishing or LA wild stamp to enter the WMA to get to the range...so everyone using "the Range" are supporting the WMA



    So by using your very own statements against you...lets say the 20,000 that use the range would never otherwise use the PR WMA or hunt or fish... they all bought a hunting or fishing license to get to the range...how much money did they just give the LDWF towards the WMA?

    a lot more than they would have had than if the range didn't exist...

    You say the range gives nothing back...the range certifies thousands of Men Women and Children through the Louisiana Hunter Safety Education Program...

    You are obviously still trying any way you can to carry on your previous AGENDA that you have with the "range"

    Stop grasping at straws and beating a dead horse from any angle you can...It's blatantly obvious what you are up to...
     

    JR1572

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    I really liked that range. However after witnessing numerous safety violations and being almost shot there, I refuse to go to that place anymore.

    JR1572
     

    Pepperidge

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    You say "complain" we say continue to work with the LDWF and strive for positive change to improve the quality of wildlife and recreational enjoyment of our State's land resources, which we refer to as WMA's. Thanks for sharing with us. Although we might not agree, we certainly enjoy lively debates and learning from each other. Have a wonderful day sir.

    WMA's are public land for all the Public to use...it's not a private hunting club for you to exclude others from your personal playground...The shooting public are some of the taxpayers that purchased the land to begin with...they buy licenses just like everyone else...In fact with the amount of ammunition they purchase in a year, one could argue that the federal tax money on that ammo that each state gets based on proven usage of state lands generates a huge amount of money for the LDWF...your beef needs to be with how LDWF allocates money to PR WMA...

    there are other WMA's with shooting ranges...how come you aren't lobbying to get those closed down...after all those hunters must be dying for your help on bringing back the "zen of the hunt"...

    Wait...I know why...because you are only worried about yourself and what affects you...Isn't that SELFish of you?

    I hunt and fish the PRWMA regularly as well as the Bogue Chitto NWR...you've probably seen me or even know me...I am also an avid shooter and use the range regularly(and if I lived near Sherburne I'd shoot there regularly)...I pay my taxes and I pay for hunting and fishing licenses....

    I'm not slamming you...I'm just tired of all the banter that somehow always has an angle to get rid of the range...I think everyone on this forum knows you have an agenda and no matter how you disguise it it shows...
     
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