Understanding the law, and lethal use of force to defend one's self....

JWG223 · May 4, 2016

I have often seen questions on Facebook, forums, etc. about "Can I shoot if...?"

My personal take on "Can I shoot if...?" has always been that I am not going to shoot someone unless I reasonably feel that if I do NOT shoot them, I could not stop what they were about to do, and what they were about to do is a direct threat to my life, limb, or that of someone in my company.

For this, I don't think there has to be an understanding of the law? For example, if I did not use potentially lethal force, I would not or someone I loved, would not be around for a trial. If that's wrong...screw it. To trial we will at least be able to go!

After a shooting, I have always been told to politely tell the responding officers the minimum required for them to process the scene, and shut up and ask for a lawyer. "Officer, the person was screaming and kicked my door in. I was in fear of my life." and then shut up.

Basically...if you have to pause and ask "Can I shoot...?", then no, you probably don't need to shoot, and you're living wrong.

Yay? Nay? Have I missed the boat?

DAVE_M · May 4, 2016

The question is irrelevant.
The situation is the only thing relevant.

99% of the time you can avoid it by walking away.
That 1% will ruin the rest of your life.

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

DAVE_M said:
The question is irrelevant.
The situation is the only thing relevant.

99% of the time you can avoid it by walking away.
That 1% will ruin the rest of your life.

So all your guns will be in the classifieds because you wont use them regardless?

I think the OP has the right mindset here. If you have to ask can I then you shouldn't legal or not. You shoot when its your only option to eliminate a direct threat.

Will it ruin your life? I dont know, but I there is a good chance that it could.

DAVE_M · May 4, 2016

Whitebread said:
So all your guns will be in the classifieds because you wont use them regardless?

That is the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Good thing it's still early.

Here's a good quote to sum up the mindset you need: "speak softly, and carry a big stick."

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

DAVE_M said:
Here's a good quote to sum up the mindset you need: "speak softly, and carry a big stick."

This I can get behind. Nice job channeling one of this countries first progressives.

What I cant agree with is: 99% it avoidable. You are basically saying its your fault if you have to shoot someone.

And the othe 1% of the time you are basically what I hear saying is you're screwed anyways may as well just eat a bullet. If you have to pull your gun its already a **** show.

DAVE_M · May 4, 2016

Whitebread said:
What I cant agree with is: 99% it avoidable. You are basically saying its your fault if you have to shoot someone.

You can't agree with it, because you have the same tough guy hero type attitude as most everyone else. I never said it's your own fault if you have to pull the trigger. In a sense it is, because it was your choice, but that's not the intended point. Stop trying to reinterpret what I posted, it makes you look ignorant.

Whitebread said:
And the othe 1% of the time you are basically what I hear saying is you're screwed anyways may as well just eat a bullet. If you have to pull your gun its already a **** show.

Again, stop trying to reinterpret something in plain English.

And if you don't agree that once you draw, it's already a **** show... you need to open your eyes to what's around you.

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

DAVE_M said:
You can't agree with it, because you have the same tough guy hero type attitude as most everyone else. I never said it's your own fault if you have to pull the trigger. In a sense it is, because it was your choice, but that's not the intended point. Stop trying to reinterpret what I posted, it makes you look ignorant.

Again, stop trying to reinterpret something in plain English.

And if you don't agree that once you draw, it's already a **** show... you need to open your eyes to what's around you.

No Dave the problem is you like to think you are smart so the first chance you get to "give some sage advice" you go and regurgitate something someone else said somewhere and try to pass it off as your own. Stop doing that. I makes you look stupid and needy.
What you call reintrupeting is bringing some silly patatude into reality.

1. If its avoid able and you didnt avoid it is your fault period!!!!
2. If your life is guaranteed to be "ruined" why would you even bother? Just roll over and take what ever you got coming or kill yourself because surely if your life will be ruined at least maybe you wont suffer the rest of your miserable life.

You don't tell a young woman who has been rapped once already and wants to protect herslef something that. You dont tell a father of two who has to work in dangerious places that if he has to protect himself so that he's around for his kids that it gonna ruin his life. No one can guarantee any outcome. You may kill public enemy #1 and get the key to thd city, or the public could go all Furgison, MO on you.

DAVE_M · May 4, 2016

I can't take you serious when you have spelling and grammatical errors.

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

DAVE_M said:
I can't take you serious when you have spelling and grammatical errors.

Yeah your right my hast/laziness as it relates to typing proves you are intilectually superior. Carry on, with your platatudes, I would hate to mess them up with my poorly punctuated and sorely spelled critical thinking skills.

:doh:

DAVE_M · May 4, 2016

Whitebread said:
Yeah your right my hast/laziness as it relates to typing proves you are intilectually superior. Carry on, with your platatudes, I would hate to mess them up with my poorly punctuated and sorely spelled critical thinking skills.

Whatever floats your boat.

US Infidel · May 4, 2016

Whitebread said:
Yeah your right my hast/laziness as it relates to typing proves you are intilectually superior. Carry on, with your platatudes, I would hate to mess them up with my poorly punctuated and sorely spelled critical thinking skills.

Oh crap!!! You said "your right..." YOU'RE in for it now.

Carry on gents......

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

US Infidel said:
Oh crap!!! You said "your right..." YOU'RE in for it now.

Carry on gents......

Yeah but everyone knows I didnt mean it kind of like when Trump says something crazy and everyone knows he's just saying for a reaction. :rofl:

Edit:

Nice I almost missed the "your and you're". Its funny when you can hide hummor in grammer.
:rofl:

bigtattoo79 · May 4, 2016

US Infidel said:
Oh crap!!! You said "your right..." YOU'RE in for it now.

Carry on gents......

I think your right.

ronkw · May 4, 2016

Back to the OP..."I have often seen questions on Facebook, forums, etc. about "Can I shoot if...?"

I carry concealed and have found that a better solution is "when must I shoot"

once you have tried avoidance (crossing the street), you have tried to de-escalate (hey no problem man) to walk away...
Not only did the threat persist and become more aggressive so that grave bodily harm was imminent.
It's not when can I shoot?,... but when must I shoot.

Obviously we can't cover every scenario, but you get the idea.

If one has to go to court over it, the circumstances had better be such that if each one of those jurors found themselves in your shoes, they would have acted as you did.

Whitebread · May 4, 2016

ronkw said:
If one has to go to court over it, the circumstances had better be such that if each one of those jurors found themselves in your shoes, they would have acted as you did.

But thats not how it works. All you need to do is convience one juror that you acted in self-defense. Now in a civil you need to convience 1/2 of the jury, but in a criminal court all you need is one.

geoney · May 4, 2016

I was watching Brannon's videos from the other threads and came across this one.

JWG223 · May 5, 2016

A lot of people are still responding to my question from the position of "could have...should have..."

I get that. However, at the point of needing or not needing to use a firearm, that is already out the window. I am PRESUMING with my question, that the person involved is not going to knowingly place themselves in a position of "having to shoot someone".

If you can run away, there is still a question of "Can/Should I shoot?" TO me, the answer is "HELL NO!" Just run away. What, your balls too big to allow effective sprinting? ********. That is what I mean. If your mentality is "I don't care about legal/not legal...I did THE ONLY THING I COULD HAVE REASONABLY FORESEEN DOING that would result in me NOT getting killed/maimed", do the laws even matter, except as an "after the facts" thing?

If you argue "yes", well, why carry a weapon? Your life is less important to you than having to go to court. I respect that. Some people are scared of court more than others. Your call.

But, what I am wanting to know...is there merit in going over every nuance of the law, considering I "plan" on shooting someone only if every other alternative for preserving my life/limb has been eliminated?

The reason for my question, is that I an getting my CCW in a new state, and know that not all CCW classes present the whole, unbiased text of the law. Should I seek out a complete understanding from an attorney, or would it largely be a waste of my time and money to do so, considering my mentality of "not looking for the "right" to shoot someone"?

Bigchillin83 · May 5, 2016

Bigchillin83 · May 5, 2016

Simple, as I see it, " my thoughts" if I am in fear for my life, or my family's life I will pull the trigger regardless of whom the threat comes from, man woman or thug or young thug, if I truly feel that they will take me or my family's life I value ours way over there's!!!! I can promise there will also be one side to the story if I can help it,and that will be mine. If I can walk away from a threat safely I will do it, "if" is the key word... I have zero patients and tolerance for sombody who wishes harm on me, my wife or my children!!!! Same as for a carjacker or anybody who comes into my house, they weigh there options and know the punishment for there crime prior to committing ....call cruel or call me mean, but that's my standing in the situation. If you open carry or conceal carry and you haven't made up your mind on wether you can pull the trigger or not, you are more dangerous than the criminals, if you decide you can't pull the trigger no biggie quit caring a gun and get yourself a dog and a pocket knife!!! If you decide to carry you need to practice be better at it than you are your cell phone/computer, know it inside and out,

Jmfox3 · May 5, 2016

Addressing the subject line. An affirmative defense is a fact or set of facts other than those alleged by the state or prosecutor which, if proven by the defendant, defeats or mitigates the legal consequences of the defendant's otherwise unlawful conduct. Self-defense, Castle-Doctrine, and Stand-your-ground are all affirmative defenses. The state is allowing you to plead guilty to murder but then present evidence that justifies your action that resulted in a murder of someone. Because the defendant pleads guilty by invoking an affirmative defense, the burden of proof shifts from the State to the defendant. Ponder that for a few for a moments and ask yourself 2 questions: 1-How confident would you be that a prosecutor wouldn't simply charge you for political reasons irrespective of the facts and circumstances aka Ferguson, MO; and 2- how much it is going to cost you to defend yourself. None of this is simple and you better have thought-thought-thought through every single issue.

Understanding the law, and lethal use of force to defend one's self....

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