SBR Questions...

Jman1911 · Sep 9, 2016

Ordered a 8.5" 300 blackout upper with the intention of filing for tax stamp to make my setup legal. Once lower is engraved can I also run a 16" 300 blackout upper on it as well?! Or maybe even a 8.5" 5.56 upper later or is this "upper" specific?

Any help would be great! Thx!

noob · Sep 9, 2016

You can run what ever upper you like on your lower. But if the upper is less than 16 inches, wait till the approval.

Jman1911 · Sep 9, 2016

Most definitely! What about after approval?

Spleen · Sep 9, 2016

You need the tax stamp to be approved before you can put the short upper on the approved lower.
But do tread with caution here.
If you already ordered the upper you'd better have a pistol lower setup before you take possession of the upper.
(Either that or don't have an ar lower at all until you get the tax stamp approved.)
Possession of a short upper can be considered constructive possession of an SBR by the ATF and get you in a world of trouble.
Know your laws, and not just from a guy on a forum...
Stay legal.

dougstump · Sep 9, 2016

I called the NFA branch to check on a pre 41f transfer, lady mentioned the estimated wait time for post 41f to be 12 to 18 months. You'll have a while to wait.

Jmfox3 · Sep 9, 2016

Spleen said:
You need the tax stamp to be approved before you can put the short upper on the approved lower.
Possession of a short upper can be considered constructive possession of an SBR by the ATF and get you in a world of trouble.
Know your laws, and not just from a guy on a forum...
Stay legal.

What he said. You need to get the application submitted ASAP. Consider asking the retailer to hold the purchase until you receive the stamp. If you take possession consider separating the barrel from the receiver until the stamp is approved. If something hiccups, like checking the wrong block on the application, the stamp is disapproved, and the upper is assembled, you are in violation. Sounds silly but it is the law.

swampfoxx · Sep 9, 2016

Just put a pistol buffer tube on it and run it as a pistol until you get your Form 1 approved. Them put the normal buffer tube and stock on it. Pistol tubes are cheap, ans AR pistols are fun to shoot. As a bonus, if you make it a pistol first, you can go back and forth as you wish.

SpeedRacer · Sep 9, 2016

After the stamp is approved, you can use whatever upper you want on it temporarily. So yes, you can use a 16" upper on it. You just need to maintain the ability to return it to its approved specs (ie as long as you retain the 8.5" 300BLK upper). If you decide to sell that upper and make a PERMANENT change (barrel length or caliber), you'll need to inform the ATF.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rcm192 · Sep 9, 2016

Now I want to build a 300blk upper for my SBR. I hate these threads! Lol.

If you decide to make your lower into a pistol while you wait on ypur stamp make sure it was never transfered as a rifle previously. Thats a no no I think.

Spleen · Sep 9, 2016

rcm192 said:
If you decide to make your lower into a pistol while you wait on your stamp make sure it was never transferred as a rifle previously. Thats a no no I think.

This is something I wonder about and have never had a clear understanding of.
Does anyone know definitively what the law says?
I don't have an AR pistol so it's not that important to me but I do like to keep abreast of such things.
Knowledge is power.

whitsend · Sep 9, 2016

Spleen said:
This is something I wonder about and have never had a clear understanding of.
Does anyone know definitively what the law says?
I don't have an AR pistol so it's not that important to me but I do like to keep abreast of such things.
Knowledge is power.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a
Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled *rifle* as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The
inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit
within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26
U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly
of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the
definition of *firearm* in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a
barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been
made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v.
One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are
assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not
subject to the NFA has been made.
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm
regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or *any other weapon* as defined by
26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled
in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle
does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown
condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same
weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no *weapon made from a rifle* subject to the NFA
has been made.
Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or
a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from
a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a *weapon
made from a rifle* as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a
*pistol* because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile by one hand.

Note the use of the word ONLY in the last paragraph.
IANAL, but all my ARs were built from stripped lowers and assembled by me to be a rifle or pistol.
If bought as a complete rifle, then the intention of the manufacturer would determine if it can be made into a pistol.

Spleen · Sep 9, 2016

whitsend said:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Note the use of the word ONLY in the last paragraph.
IANAL, but all my ARs were built from stripped lowers and assembled by me to be a rifle or pistol.
If bought as a complete rifle, then the intention of the manufacturer would determine if it can be made into a pistol.

Thank you for your time researching, the link to the regulation and your thoughts on the matter but I am still ambiguous on this one.
As it is worded I am not comfortable coming up with any real clear understanding one way or the other.
Many times in life the real answers are up to interpretation.
If I feel "fuzzy" on a matter, I remain conservative.
Frustrating, really.
But thank you again for your effort.
Like many regulations, it's still clear as mud to me.

Jman1911 · Sep 9, 2016

This is a lot to take in! Lol

Whitebread · Sep 9, 2016

You could just go ahead and use it a say the hell with the atf. Build you a homebrew suppressor. Make you a rap video and claim you bought them on the "Hoodrat Loophole" and that in November you will vote for Clinton. Oh and dont forget the threaten Trumps life in the rap video it will prove you are a loyal commi-crat.

Jman1911 · Sep 9, 2016

Whitebread said:
You could just go ahead and use it a say the hell with the atf. Build you a homebrew suppressor. Make you a rap video and claim you bought them on the "Hoodrat Loophole" and that in November you will vote for Clinton. Oh and dont forget the threaten Trumps life in the rap video it will prove you are a loyal commi-crat.

swampfoxx · Sep 9, 2016

I spent many hours researching before I built my pistol/SBR. My understanding is this: If the lower was purchased from a manufacturer pre-assembled as a rifle, then it was registered with the ATF as a rifle, and can never be a pistol. If the lower was purchased from a manufacturer pre-assembled as a pistol, then it was registered with the ATF as a pistol, and can be swapped from a pistol to a rifle and back at will. If you purchased a stripped lower, then it is registered as Other, and can be whatever you want it to be. Technically, you have to build a pistol first, then you can swap back and forth, but who besides you, is going to know. I believe that if you purchase a complete lower, with stock, then the manufacturer registers it as a rifle, so you should be careful with that configuration.

I registered my Form 1 with a stripped lower. I then built a pistol using my short barrel and a different stripped lower and shot it for several months while waiting on my F1. When I was approved, I assembled a rifle using the registered SBR lower with the intention of swapping the upper back and forth from a rifle to pistol. I thought it would be cool to carry an AR-15 pistol in my vehicle, but the cool wore off pretty quickly. When I built a Form 1 silencer, it made the pistol unwieldy to handle, so I sold the pistol lower in the classifieds, and now just have the SBR with silencer. The silencer has a QD end cap, and I have QD muzzle brakes on the SBR and the long range AR, so I can swap it between the SBR and my target rifle.

Spleen · Sep 9, 2016

Oh yes, to the original poster, don't forget to have your lower engraved appropriately once the tax stamp comes back.
Without that, you are still in violation of NFA regulations...
Request Dust Off (a member here) can most certainly help with this
Welcome to the one of the most confusing hobbies in the world.

shrxfn · Sep 9, 2016

We can make the rules really simple.

1. make your stripped lower in a pistol lower with a pistol buffer tube. ( they run about ~$10 to $30)
2. pin short upper to pistol lower and enjoy.
3. When you receive tax stamp get lower engraved with trust info
4. remove pistol buffer tube and put in adjustable buttstock.
5. Enjoy your new SBR.

Follow the above steps and you are golden.

LONTON · Sep 19, 2016

dougstump said:
I called the NFA branch to check on a pre 41f transfer, lady mentioned the estimated wait time for post 41f to be 12 to 18 months. You'll have a while to wait.

What did they tell you regarding pre-41f transfers?

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