No Gun sign question

Nolacopusmc · Aug 8, 2010

spanky said:
I don't think that is relevant.

I agree, and since full citations were not provided, i have no idea where all that came from. Looks like two parts of two different laws.

PEOPLE- WHen you post a citation, post the whole thing. You cannot use parts of one to apply to another.

bs875 · Aug 8, 2010

Thanks. I see why no one here knew. Because no one else really knows either.

Nolacopusmc · Aug 8, 2010

bs875 said:
Thanks. I see why no one here knew. Because no one else really knows either.

bingo

charlie12 · Aug 8, 2010

bs875 said:
I think these citations pertain to different situations. I PM'd nolacopusmc and asked him to comment.

+1

honestlou · Aug 9, 2010

I think nolacopusmc was pretty much on the money, but I would state it a little differently. It is not that violating the terms of your CHP invalidates it. It is just that your CHP gives you specific rights to carry a concealed handgun, and you simply have no right to carry (under your CHP) in those places that are specifically excluded, so you are subject to being charged under any of the other statutes that may apply.

In other words, your CHP gives you no more rights than your drivers license or Sam's Club card to carry while intoxicated, or in a bar, or in a parade, etc.

Bearco · Aug 9, 2010

Nolacopusmc said:
Not gonna be a felony. Misdemeanor. When you read a law, if the penalty is 1 year imprisonment or hard labor, it is a felony by LA standards.

This is another one that has been debated with no real answer until someone gets busted.

There is no "Not obeying a no gun sign" law or statute.

However, ONE OF MANY WAYS it could play out is, and try to follow the logic without thinking wether it is "dat's wrong". Try to look at it from a very logical legal viewpoint (oxymoron, I know). This is what has been discussed in closed sessions with and without me by stronger and more experienced legal minds than mine.

1. It is illegal to carry a handgun concealed without a permit.

2. If you break any of the rules inside of 40:1379.3-Statewide permits for concealed handguns; application procedures; definitions your permit becomes instantly invalid as defined by the statute and the signed affidavit (your application) and rules contained within. You Basically agree to follow the rules. When you break them, you are not covered by the legal protection of the permit.

3. If your permit becomes instantly invalid, you are now illegally carrying a concealed handgun as defined by 14:95 Illegal Carrying of Weapons

4. Per 40:1379.3-Statewide permits for concealed handguns; application procedures; definitions a private property owner can restrict access for any reason, even to not have guns on premise.

5. There is some exception pertaining to issues like "presumption of access" and other legal concepts that affect a private place that is open to the public, but as a general rule, if you do not own the property, you do not make the rules and must follow the rules of the person who does own.

6.Not counting the exceptions above, you in the strictest (yet completely impractical) sense of the law, must GET permission, not assume it.

"Always remember, in our society, the default answer is NO GUNS. Always approach the issue from the viewpoint of NO GUNS and you will be safe" Paraphrased from a statement a gentlemen made at the CHP meeting...who BTW was a lawyer of some type and a pretty knowledgeable guys as far as legislative issues and jurisprudence were concerned. He was the guy everyone deferred to when these topics came up. Many of you know who I am referring to.

7. So, when you operate by the very clever but equally as ignorant notion of "Concealed Means Concealed" you are infact nullifying your permit and breaking the law on two seperate accounts by doing that which is prohibited by the CHP STATUTE 40:1379.3

EXAMPLE SCENARIO-

You live by Concealed Means Concealed, so you walk into a place that has a Class A general Retail Permit. Upon doing so, your CHP becomes invalid. You are now in violation, at minimum, of:
40:1379.3-Statewide permits for concealed handguns; application procedures; definitions
and
14:95 Illegal Carrying of Weapons

However, if the establishment is also a Alcoholic Beverage Outlet as defined in 14:95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet, you could also be charged with that.

This is again ONE OF MANY ways this specific set of circumstances COULD turn out.

The same thing goes for a place with a NO GUNS sign. It COULD be determined by ignoring it, you invalidated your permit, thus illegally carrying concealed, thus broke the law.

Sooooooo, as the prevailing advice from LSP, knowledgeable instructors, LEO, and attorneys states....use common sense and you should be OK.

Is that an iron clad guarantee? Of course not, but as in life, if you use your head and do not go around saying"Fick that sign", you should be OK.

This, and not much else on this page.

Nolacopusmc · Aug 9, 2010

honestlou said:
I think nolacopusmc was pretty much on the money, but I would state it a little differently. It is not that violating the terms of your CHP invalidates it. It is just that your CHP gives you specific rights to carry a concealed handgun, and you simply have no right to carry (under your CHP) in those places that are specifically excluded, so you are subject to being charged under any of the other statutes that may apply.

In other words, your CHP gives you no more rights than your drivers license or Sam's Club card to carry while intoxicated, or in a bar, or in a parade, etc.

I see what you are saying, but I mean it exactly like I said it.

If you violate any of the rules in the CHP statute, you basically no longer have a CHP. If you are drinking and have a BAC over .05% per gram, then you no longer have a permit and if still concealing, you are in violation of 14:95 and possibly 40:1382 depending on how impaired your level of intoxication makes you.

The permit allows you to break the law. That is what any permit is by definition. When you break the parameters of the permit, it is instantly invalid. Therefore, whatever law you were breaking with the allowance of the permit, you are now breaking without it and subject to legal action.

Your permit gives you legal exception to that which is otherwise criminal, like concealing a handgun on one's person. When you violate the clauses of that permit, it goes away and you no longer have that legal exception.

flamatrix99 · Aug 9, 2010

spanky said:
Does that make it a felony?

That's the part I was wondering where it came from.

JadeRaven · Aug 9, 2010

Nolacopusmc said:
4. Per 40:1379.3-Statewide permits for concealed handguns; application procedures; definitions a private property owner can restrict access for any reason, even to not have guns on premise.

5. There is some exception pertaining to issues like "presumption of access" and other legal concepts that affect a private place that is open to the public, but as a general rule, if you do not own the property, you do not make the rules and must follow the rules of the person who does own.

6.Not counting the exceptions above, you in the strictest (yet completely impractical) sense of the law, must GET permission, not assume it.

The part of the law I believe you are referring to is:

"O. The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person."

By this paragraph, the law states that the right of a property owner or custodian to prohibit or restrict access is not restricted. Then it goes on to say that concealed handgun permit holders need to first get consent from the owner of a private residence before entering that residence.

This is 1) stating that people can restrict access to their private property (which we already know, you can forbid all people named Bob from your property, for example). Then this says in the second sentence that 2) a CHP holder needs permission to carry a concealed handgun into another's private *residence.*

This does not say that you need to get permission to carry a concealed handgun onto another's private property, merely their private residence. The fact that the legislature went out of the way to affirm the rights of property owners to restrict access to their property (other than a private residence) appears to be just their desire to show that the CHP does not trump property rights.

If the legislature desired for it to be a mandate for CHP holders to actively get permission from private property owners, or to make it a punishable offense under this statute not to obey a sign on a door restricting access, then they could easily have done that. One easy way for them to have done that would have been not to limit the permission only to a private residence. The clear fact that they went out of their way to limit this permission requirement to only a private residence could be an indication of their desire to limit the requirement to get permission to only private residences.

In the strictest sense of the law, you are only required under this law get permission to go into another's private residence, and private property owners are not denied their rights to limit access to their property. Strictly reading this law, there appears to be no violation for disobeying a posted rule or restriction (unless it is a private residence). There may be an issue of trespass, but not a violation under the chp statute.

bs875 · Aug 9, 2010

Bosco said:
The better question is why would you want to give someone business if they don't want law abiding citizens who legally carry as customers?

You wouldn't. But the question morphed into "What if you did it anyway?". And now I'm morphing it into "Do we have a list of businesses that forbid concealed carry?". I mean one that is created by members and updated as such.

Bearco · Aug 9, 2010

bs875 said:
You wouldn't. But the question morphed into "What if you did it anyway?". And now I'm morphing it into "Do we have a list of businesses that forbid concealed carry?". I mean one that is created by members and updated as such.

NolaCopUSMC is just started one
http://bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40280

Guate_shooter · Aug 9, 2010

This was posted today on legallyconcealed.org

honestlou · Aug 9, 2010

It is interesting that RS 40:1379.3 makes a distinction between carrying while under the influence, and carrying in places that are prohibited.

I.(1) No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry and conceal such handgun while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance. While a permittee is under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance, an otherwise lawful permit is considered automatically suspended and is not valid. A permittee shall be considered under the influence as evidenced by a blood alcohol reading of .05 percent or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood, or when a blood test or urine test shows any confirmed presence of a controlled dangerous substance as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964.

Under this subsection, the permit is automatically suspended WHILE A PERMITTEE IS UNDER THE INFLUENCE. It does not automatically revoke the permit, as that procedure is provided for in subsection (3) of section I, along with revocation for refusal to submit to a chemical test, and for being guilty of negligent carrying under RS 40:1382. Here is subsection (3):

(3) The permit to carry a concealed weapon shall be revoked by the deputy secretary when the permittee is carrying and concealing a handgun under any of the following circumstances:
(a) The blood alcohol reading of a permittee is .05 percent or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood.
(b) A permittee's blood test or urine test shows the confirmed presence of a controlled dangerous substance as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964.
(c) A permittee refuses to submit to a department-certified chemical test when requested to do so by a law enforcement officer pursuant to Paragraph (2) of this Subsection.
(d) An individual is found guilty of negligent carrying of a concealed handgun as provided for in R.S. 40:1382.

Subsection (2) of section I provides for a six month automatic suspension for failure to notify a police officer that he is carrying, although it is not clear to me if this "automatic suspension" needs to be processed in some way:

2) A permittee armed with a handgun in accordance with this Section shall notify any police officer who approaches the permittee in an official manner or with an identified official purpose that he has a weapon on his person, submit to a pat down, and allow the officer to temporarily disarm him. Whenever a law enforcement officer is made aware that an individual is carrying a concealed handgun and the law enforcement officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the individual is under the influence of either alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance, the law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the handgun and request submission of the individual to a department certified chemical test for determination of the chemical status of the individual. Whenever a law enforcement officer is made aware that an individual is behaving in a criminally negligent manner as defined under the provisions of this Section, or is negligent in the carrying of a concealed handgun as provided for in R.S. 40:1382, the law enforcement officer may seize the handgun, until adjudication by a judge, if the individual is issued a summons or arrested under the provisions of R.S. 40:1382. Failure by the permittee to comply with the provisions of this Paragraph shall result in a six-month automatic suspension of the permit.

Section R provides for a possible suspension of up to 90 days for failure to report an arrest:

R.(1) Each permittee, within fifteen days of a misdemeanor or a felony arrest, other than a minor traffic violation, in this state or any other state, shall notify the deputy secretary of public safety services by certified mail. The deputy secretary may suspend, for up to ninety days, the permit of any permittee who fails to meet the notification requirements of this Section.

All of these provisions are in contrast to section N, which merely lists all of the places where the permit does not entitle the permittee to carry. Although a violation of section N is a misdemeanor, I don't see anything providing for a suspension or revocation of the permit for this type of violation.

Nolacopusmc · Aug 9, 2010

honestlou said:
It is interesting that RS 40:1379.3 makes a distinction between carrying while under the influence, and carrying in places that are prohibited.

I.(1) No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry and conceal such handgun while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance. While a permittee is under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance, an otherwise lawful permit is considered automatically suspended and is not valid. A permittee shall be considered under the influence as evidenced by a blood alcohol reading of .05 percent or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood, or when a blood test or urine test shows any confirmed presence of a controlled dangerous substance as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964.

Under this subsection, the permit is automatically suspended WHILE A PERMITTEE IS UNDER THE INFLUENCE. It does not automatically revoke the permit, as that procedure is provided for in subsection (3) of section I, along with revocation for refusal to submit to a chemical test, and for being guilty of negligent carrying under RS 40:1382. Here is subsection (3):

(3) The permit to carry a concealed weapon shall be revoked by the deputy secretary when the permittee is carrying and concealing a handgun under any of the following circumstances:
(a) The blood alcohol reading of a permittee is .05 percent or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood.
(b) A permittee's blood test or urine test shows the confirmed presence of a controlled dangerous substance as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964.
(c) A permittee refuses to submit to a department-certified chemical test when requested to do so by a law enforcement officer pursuant to Paragraph (2) of this Subsection.
(d) An individual is found guilty of negligent carrying of a concealed handgun as provided for in R.S. 40:1382.

Subsection (2) of section I provides for a six month automatic suspension for failure to notify a police officer that he is carrying, although it is not clear to me if this "automatic suspension" needs to be processed in some way:

2) A permittee armed with a handgun in accordance with this Section shall notify any police officer who approaches the permittee in an official manner or with an identified official purpose that he has a weapon on his person, submit to a pat down, and allow the officer to temporarily disarm him. Whenever a law enforcement officer is made aware that an individual is carrying a concealed handgun and the law enforcement officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the individual is under the influence of either alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance, the law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the handgun and request submission of the individual to a department certified chemical test for determination of the chemical status of the individual. Whenever a law enforcement officer is made aware that an individual is behaving in a criminally negligent manner as defined under the provisions of this Section, or is negligent in the carrying of a concealed handgun as provided for in R.S. 40:1382, the law enforcement officer may seize the handgun, until adjudication by a judge, if the individual is issued a summons or arrested under the provisions of R.S. 40:1382. Failure by the permittee to comply with the provisions of this Paragraph shall result in a six-month automatic suspension of the permit.

Section R provides for a possible suspension of up to 90 days for failure to report an arrest:

R.(1) Each permittee, within fifteen days of a misdemeanor or a felony arrest, other than a minor traffic violation, in this state or any other state, shall notify the deputy secretary of public safety services by certified mail. The deputy secretary may suspend, for up to ninety days, the permit of any permittee who fails to meet the notification requirements of this Section.

All of these provisions are in contrast to section N, which merely lists all of the places where the permit does not entitle the permittee to carry. Although a violation of section N is a misdemeanor, I don't see anything providing for a suspension or revocation of the permit for this type of violation.

i will have to read a little more, but what i was referring to was at the minimum, while you are in the process of breaking the rules of CHP, your CHP will be invalid.

Does not necessarily mean your permit will be permanently revoked, but it is invalid when you are not following the rules.

It is kinda the same as when a cop beats someone, even though he is a cop, he is not protected by "qualified immunity" or similar protections when he is breaking the law. Does not mean he will necessarily get fired, but he cannot claim color of law while robbing a bank or raping someone, and is subject to prosecution for those things done outside the scope of his commission or "permit"

Guate_shooter · Aug 9, 2010

Nolacopusmc said:
i will have to read a little more, but what i was referring to was at the minimum, while you are in the process of breaking the rules of CHP, your CHP will be invalid.

Does not necessarily mean your permit will be permanently revoked, but it is invalid when you are not following the rules.

It is kinda the same as when a cop beats someone, even though he is a cop, he is not protected by "qualified immunity" or similar protections when he is breaking the law. Does not mean he will necessarily get fired, but he cannot claim color of law while robbing a bank or raping someone, and is subject to prosecution for those things done outside the scope of his commission or "permit"

LOL so I guess beating people up with phone books is out the question???????????????

JUst messing with u!

honestlou · Aug 9, 2010

Nolacopusmc said:
i will have to read a little more, but what i was referring to was at the minimum, while you are in the process of breaking the rules of CHP, your CHP will be invalid.

Does not necessarily mean your permit will be permanently revoked, but it is invalid when you are not following the rules.

It is kinda the same as when a cop beats someone, even though he is a cop, he is not protected by "qualified immunity" or similar protections when he is breaking the law. Does not mean he will necessarily get fired, but he cannot claim color of law while robbing a bank or raping someone, and is subject to prosecution for those things done outside the scope of his commission or "permit"

We don't really disagree; it's more a question of semantics. I just found it interesting when I really looked at it, that it it does not appear that you can lose your permit for violating those terms regarding where you can carry (parade, church, etc.).

Nolacopusmc · Aug 9, 2010

honestlou said:
We don't really disagree; it's more a question of semantics. I just found it interesting when I really looked at it, that it it does not appear that you can lose your permit for violating those terms regarding where you can carry (parade, church, etc.).

Yeah, after talking at length with Sgt Reavis, there is very little that can get you permit suspended or revoked, even if you are arrested and found guilty. The best way I have been able to decipher it, is unless you get arrested and convicted for something that would have been a disqualifier in the first place, then you are basically good to go.

BigNick73 · Aug 9, 2010

Is there any laws as to size and location of the signs?

I carried in a certain mall all the time when I was living in MS. Well one day I noticed the sign it was probably 3"x3" and very inconspicuous.

Nolacopusmc · Aug 9, 2010

BigNick73 said:
Is there any laws as to size and location of the signs?

I carried in a certain mall all the time when I was living in MS. Well one day I noticed the sign it was probably 3"x3" and very inconspicuous.

Nope, none at all, and there is no requirement for a sign.

James Cannon · Aug 10, 2010

I had called and asked one of the officers in the CHP department about the signage issue, a couple days ago, because I was uncertain, and it came up in a conversation with someone who has already taken their CHP course (I haven't)

It's basically -your- responsibility with full onus on YOU to know whether or not that property owner allows handguns on their premise BEFORE you enter the property. No sign required, nothing at all.

Isn't that a bit messed up? How is one to know before entering the property? The way the law goes, it would appear we are required to contact the owner of every location we wish to visit, if we're to remain in the clear.

I wish that they would make it more like Texas and require a "30.06" sign.

No Gun sign question

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