For Those into 1960s Mustangs - This is *AWESOME*

[RyanW]

From 1999 to 2004, it was, excluding 2002, when there was no Cobra. It was about the crappiest IRS known to man, though. Horrible geometry and weak half-shafts.

Including 2002. 200 were made. Notice the front bumper. It was also right hand drive.

 

[SVTFreak]

Your right. It will be ungodly. So will the sticker. I purposefully passed on the gt500 and won't be getting the new one due to the exuberant prices. It's not a muscle car anymore. They've become the halo car for hairy Chested retired guys who want to have what they perceive to be the baddest. You'll still be able to take a gt, mod it and make more power easily for alot less money. The days of the sub 30k extremely modable terminator is gone and probably will not return. Besides, the rods will be the same in the 5.8l, so power levels will be very limited by that.

Combine that with the suspicion is that the bore will remain the same as the 5.4/4.6 and the extra displacement is strictly on stroke (ford wanted to use same machines with new line of motors as old so basic block geometry had to remain the same. Current rumor is that that is same for 5.8l but havnt seen specs yet). Longer stroke=higher piston speed=even more stress on rods. The cutaway I saw had same rods as 5.4l gt500 motor.

New Edge Cobras are, 99-01 and 03-04 Terminators.


The 5.0 ain't sh!t, the Blown 5.8 is what I've started saving my pennies for. I want a 2014 GT500, 50th anniversary, and I hope they do a special 2014 1/2 model, black with dark dark red stripes!!!! 650hp, 600lbft!!!!! I'm sure a pulley and a tune will make it ungodly

 

[JWG223]

Including 2002. 200 were made. Notice the front bumper. It was also right hand drive.

Okay...you got me. RHD.

 

[JWG223]

New Edge Cobras are, 99-01 and 03-04 Terminators.


The 5.0 ain't sh!t, the Blown 5.8 is what I've started saving my pennies for. I want a 2014 GT500, 50th anniversary, and I hope they do a special 2014 1/2 model, black with dark dark red stripes!!!! 650hp, 600lbft!!!!! I'm sure a pulley and a tune will make it ungodly

Wait until you can get the same car with IRS and a few hundred pounds lighter and it will be a lot more fun...

 

[RyanW]

Your right. It will be ungodly. So will the sticker. I purposefully passed on the gt500 and won't be getting the new one due to the exuberant prices. It's not a muscle car anymore. They've become the halo car for hairy Chested retired guys who want to have what they perceive to be the baddest. You'll still be able to take a gt, mod it and make more power easily for alot less money. The days of the sub 30k extremely modable terminator is gone and probably will not return. Besides, the rods will be the same in the 5.8l, so power levels will be very limited by that.

Combine that with the suspicion is that the bore will remain the same as the 5.4/4.6 and the extra displacement is strictly on stroke (ford wanted to use same machines with new line of motors as old so basic block geometry had to remain the same. Current rumor is that that is same for 5.8l but havnt seen specs yet). Longer stroke=higher piston speed=even more stress on rods. The cutaway I saw had same rods as 5.4l gt500 motor.

3 years ago I decided to wait for a 50th Anni. stang. As much as I hate the idea of a $60,000 mustang, it's a beast. I won;t buy a 2013, not only due to it not being a 50th, but also, the first year is always a failure for new mustangs.

 

[JWG223]

Your right. It will be ungodly. So will the sticker. I purposefully passed on the gt500 and won't be getting the new one due to the exuberant prices. It's not a muscle car anymore. They've become the halo car for hairy Chested retired guys who want to have what they perceive to be the baddest. You'll still be able to take a gt, mod it and make more power easily for alot less money. The days of the sub 30k extremely modable terminator is gone and probably will not return. Besides, the rods will be the same in the 5.8l, so power levels will be very limited by that.

Combine that with the suspicion is that the bore will remain the same as the 5.4/4.6 and the extra displacement is strictly on stroke (ford wanted to use same machines with new line of motors as old so basic block geometry had to remain the same. Current rumor is that that is same for 5.8l but havnt seen specs yet). Longer stroke=higher piston speed=even more stress on rods. The cutaway I saw had same rods as 5.4l gt500 motor.

The terminator stickered in the 40's, IIRC. The GT500 is a helluva bargain, the suspension is just woefully inadequate. However, it's a legitimate 200mph capable car off the factory floor for the 2013YM. That is respectable, even if it is a bit of a bottle-rocket of a car. Sure, I know the 'ring times are RUMORED to be good, but with 285's and a SRA out back, it sucks, I'm sorry. Ford has polished the SRA and skinny-tires turd to a glistening sheen and needs to move on.

 

[JWG223]

3 years ago I decided to wait for a 50th Anni. stang. As much as I hate the idea of a $60,000 mustang, it's a beast. I won;t buy a 2013, not only due to it not being a 50th, but also, the first year is always a failure for new mustangs.

The first year is always a sales-spike and the 2005's did really well. I hardly ever saw them in for anything but oil-changes at my dealership. In fact, that was the only thing I saw them in for.

 

[RyanW]

Wait until you can get the same car with IRS and a few hundred pounds lighter and it will be a lot more fun...

Having driven the Roush 540RH with solid axle, it is VERY possible to have a solid axle rear handle well in an S197 chassis. That car handled like it was on rails, and it was on the crap stock GT wheels and tires. Had to swap out the slicks and skinnies to go on the street and play with it. The newer versions are nothing like the boat assed 05-09's.



And of course, Hitler failing with "SS" once again

 

[RyanW]

The first year is always a sales-spike and the 2005's did really well. I hardly ever saw them in for anything but oil-changes at my dealership. In fact, that was the only thing I saw them in for.

They handled terribly, and the 4.0's had a good bit of issues. The 99 Cobra was stricken with issues as well. If only the Terminator had been made longer....

 

[RyanW]

Oh how I miss it...
only had 19k miles on it when I sold 2 years ago

I want to buy a dynacorn body for my son when he's old enough to help build it, most likely a 68, but we'll have to mod the body a bit to make a Bullitt. I'm just scared of having to buy the steering wheel. Last I checked they were going for about $10k. I figure by 6-7 he should start learning his fractions on the wrenches

Always gotta keep good company, my poor young'n sittin next to the old folks lol

 

[JWG223]

Having driven the Roush 540RH with solid axle, it is VERY possible to have a solid axle rear handle well in an S197 chassis. That car handled like it was on rails, and it was on the crap stock GT wheels and tires. Had to swap out the slicks and skinnies to go on the street and play with it. The newer versions are nothing like the boat assed 05-09's.



And of course, Hitler failing with "SS" once again

On flat roads they do great. Corners with un-even pavement and bumps? Not so hot. There is a reason that Ford makes the only "Sports" car with an SRA, and it's not that Nissan, Porsche, GM, Ferrari, and Aston Martin are "missing out".

They handled terribly, and the 4.0's had a good bit of issues. The 99 Cobra was stricken with issues as well. If only the Terminator had been made longer....

Only recently has Ford even seemed to care about corners. The '05-'09 handled the way Ford wanted them too. Nice and soft. Most mustang-buyers either only cared about looks or straight-line performance, traditionally. That is changing, and so is the car.

I never saw any of those cars in the shop. That isn't to say they didn't have issues, but not enough that I saw any of them broken down being worked on.

 

[Mjolnir]

From 1999 to 2004, it was, excluding 2002, when there was no Cobra. It was about the crappiest IRS known to man, though. Horrible geometry and weak half-shafts.

I have personal history with that suspension while working with Ford Powertrain Noise, Vibration & Harshness. Being a sports car guy I wished for a true IRS. The system we were stuck with came from the Ford of Australia Ghia (Inline 6, auto, RWD sedan). The links were aluminum and it was deemed good enough if too expensive. So it was re-engineered in steel and "Voila!". There is more to it than that but I was not on the Mustang Program Team and I was not a Vehicle Dynamics Engineer so that was good enough for me at the time. I also recall facilitating a meeting with Advanced Engineering (me and several supervisors and Technical Specialists) and Ford of Australia VDEs and Program Engineering discussing the levels of isolation required for the IRS to obtain adequate vehicle refinement.

Those halfshafts; you don't know the half of it. Pun intended. 1997 Mustang prototypes had an issue termed "judder" on low coefficient of friction surfaces (wet Jennite). It could be induced on the road as well. What one would do is launch the vehicle and ifnyounheld the throttle just right the vehicle would lurch violently in resonance as long as you held the throttle constant. We used wheel speed sensors as well as a Hall Effect sensor on the trans input shaft as well as engine rpm signal to measure the event. I recall correlating the vibration with interior sound as well.

The phenomena was so bad that they began to crack the paint on the body of the vehicle - so great was the forces into the body.

Long story short, the half shafts were flexing in torsion 45 degrees - +/- 22.5 degrees!

My solution was thicker (more torsionally stiff) halfshafts. I ran simple calculations and 45mm would rid us of that problem but they would not fit so 43mm was finally agreed upon.

There was also a calibration issue in which one could be damned near lugging a manual trans car, say, in 4th gear and 2 mph (!) and then nail the throttle with a horrible BANG! and corresponding violent forward thrust. I didn't feel the test condition warranted any attention but was overruled. I tested a BMW M3 and it did the same but less violently. While the Mustang Team focused on long travel clutches I convinced my boss that we could investigate a solution via calibration. We did so successfully. Two high profile solutions in one fiscal year paved the way for bigger and better things.

Oh, we were following the halfshaft failures at the dragstrips and some predicted this to be. We heard of guys unbolting the IRS and swapping it out with a GT owner. Odd but true.

 

[JWG223]

I have personal history with that suspension while working with Ford Powertrain Noise, Vibration & Harshness. Being a sports car guy I wished for a true IRS. The system we were stuck with came from the Ford of Australia Ghia (Inline 6, auto, RWD sedan). The links were aluminum and it was deemed good enough if too expensive. So it was re-engineered in steel and "Voila!". There is more to it than that but I was not on the Mustang Program Team and I was not a Vehicle Dynamics Engineer so that was good enough for me at the time. I also recall facilitating a meeting with Advanced Engineering (me and several supervisors and Technical Specialists) and Ford of Australia VDEs and Program Engineering discussing the levels of isolation required for the IRS to obtain adequate vehicle refinement.

Those halfshafts; you don't know the half of it. Pun intended. 1997 Mustang prototypes had an issue termed "judder" on low coefficient of friction surfaces (wet Jennite). It could be induced on the road as well. What one would do is launch the vehicle and ifnyounheld the throttle just right the vehicle would lurch violently in resonance as long as you held the throttle constant. We used wheel speed sensors as well as a Hall Effect sensor on the trans input shaft as well as engine rpm signal to measure the event. I recall correlating the vibration with interior sound as well.

The phenomena was so bad that they began to crack the paint on the body of the vehicle - so great was the forces into the body.

Long story short, the half shafts were flexing in torsion 45 degrees - +/- 22.5 degrees!

My solution was thicker (more torsionally stiff) halfshafts. I ran simple calculations and 45mm would rid us of that problem but they would not fit so 43mm was finally agreed upon.

There was also a calibration issue in which one could be damned near lugging a manual trans car, say, in 4th gear and 2 mph (!) and then nail the throttle with a horrible BANG! and corresponding violent forward thrust. I didn't feel the test condition warranted any attention but was overruled. I tested a BMW M3 and it did the same but less violently. While the Mustang Team focused on long travel clutches I convinced my boss that we could investigate a solution via calibration. We did so successfully. Two high profile solutions in one fiscal year paved the way for bigger and better things.

Oh, we were following the halfshaft failures at the dragstrips and some predicted this to be. We heard of guys unbolting the IRS and swapping it out with a GT owner. Odd but true.

Yep, lotta issues with that IRS. I personally know of one car that probably runs 14's and had the IRS swapped for an SRA. IRS is THE way to go, but not THAT IRS.

 

[SVTFreak]

The terminator stickered in the 40's, IIRC. The GT500 is a helluva bargain, the suspension is just woefully inadequate. However, it's a legitimate 200mph capable car off the factory floor for the 2013YM. That is respectable, even if it is a bit of a bottle-rocket of a car. Sure, I know the 'ring times are RUMORED to be good, but with 285's and a SRA out back, it sucks, I'm sorry. Ford has polished the SRA and skinny-tires turd to a glistening sheen and needs to move on.

I bought two terminators for 28,940 +ttl brand new off the lot from two different dealerships. Sticker was 38 on them. Loaded save for convertible 10th package.

As far as the IRS, it was terrible. I helped on several LA swaps from GT's for friends cars. You could band aid it up some but couldn't solve all it's issues. It would have been better if ford would have done it correctly. 12mm bolts in 14mm mounting holes? C'mon, no wonder it cluncked on shifts. Rear mount points with only one side supported and way too many rubber bushings left too much movement in too many directions. I played with one of mine and actually had it very solid but the amount of time and money and extra steel I put into it wasn't worth it for the marginal gains in handling over a properly designed live axle.

Much of the above combined with 20+ year old chassis design, is why I'll never go back. Solid performer in 2003, and a big slap in the face to Chevy after killing the camaro, but by today's standard, it's a dinosaur. Like i said, tvs on my 2011 and it's 1000x the car my cobras where. Even with 40 less Hp at the wheels, it's faster, and better in every way than the old ones.

If the next iteration of gt500 is what they saying, it'll bebadass. It's just gotten way to badass in the price department for someone wanting just to go fast and not worried about having that badge on the front.

 

[JWG223]

I bought two terminators for 28,940 +ttl brand new off the lot from two different dealerships. Sticker was 38 on them. Loaded save for convertible 10th package.

As far as the IRS, it was terrible. I helped on several LA swaps from GT's for friends cars. You could band aid it up some but couldn't solve all it's issues. It would have been better if ford would have done it correctly. 12mm bolts in 14mm mounting holes? C'mon, no wonder it cluncked on shifts. Rear mount points with only one side supported and way too many rubber bushings left too much movement in too many directions. I played with one of mine and actually had it very solid but the amount of time and money and extra steel I put into it wasn't worth it for the marginal gains in handling over a properly designed live axle.

Much of the above combined with 20+ year old chassis design, is why I'll never go back. Solid performer in 2003, and a big slap in the face to Chevy after killing the camaro, but by today's standard, it's a dinosaur. Like i said, tvs on my 2011 and it's 1000x the car my cobras where. Even with 40 less Hp at the wheels, it's faster, and better in every way than the old ones.

If the next iteration of gt500 is what they saying, it'll bebadass. It's just gotten way to badass in the price department for someone wanting just to go fast and not worried about having that badge on the front.

GT500 is priced correctly I think. It's a 550 (soon to be 650) hp factory warrantied car. Find another one for under $60K? That said, the suspension and tires make it more of a bad joke in my book, or a conversation piece, etc.

 

[SVTFreak]

Jwg, you own a dealership or are employed at one? What capacity of employed?

I dont disagree with the pricing of the Shelby. I just disagree that the pricing is right for me. I can afford it, its just reached the point that I don't wanna afford it, even with x plan hahaha!

 

[JWG223]

Jwg, you own a dealership or are employed at one? What capacity of employed?

I dont disagree with the pricing of the Shelby. I just disagree that the pricing is right for me. I can afford it, its just reached the point that I don't wanna afford it, even with x plan hahaha!

Formerly,
Ford Dealership Employee, 2005, New/Used Sales.

Pricing and how it relates to one's personal budget is a personal call. I thought you meant that "the car isn't worth it" in a general sense, not a personal one.

 

[SVTFreak]

Just thought of something. I wonder if they used the new head architecture in the 5.8l. If so (and many are going to laugh when i say this), then its underpowered! The magic of the 5.0 is the head design and TiVCT. I havnt seen if the new shelby will incorporate the head design (outboard cams, port design, TiVCT) and the copperhead processor. I cannot imagine they wouldnt though! However, the 5.0 at 9 psi is rated at 624 bhp. So a 5.8l with the same blower (2.3l TVS eaton on cutaway shown at LVMS) at 8 psi is rated at 650 bhp? Something doesnt add up (especially since all numbers seem to be underrated by the calculator and 1/4 mile MPH and weight). Maybe they slowed the blower down more. Will be interesting to see.

 

[SVTFreak]

Pricing and how it relates to one's personal budget is a personal call. I thought you meant that "the car isn't worth it" in a general sense, not a personal one.

I rarely say a car isnt or is worth it. Its worth what the owner will give for it and feel good about. I do believe that the current GT500 suspension is substandard (as do you) for the price and the motor design is archaic now. The new one should fix that if they utilized what theyve learned in the 5.0l. It isnt capable of the power it could be with better rods (and i believe the new one will have same limitation), but it does and will do what ford wants and designed it to do. It stirs souls for sure. I still pee a little when i see one, even though i could have one any time i wanted.

Side note, we really have jacked this poor thread....

 

[topgunz1]

Also of note: I checked out a Boss 302 at a locale Stealership while I was working nights last month... they tacked on a $10,000 "Market adjustment" on it. 10K price hike over MSRP for no damn reason. Wow.