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  1. #1
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    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting Review

    Well it’s not every day that I have the opportunity to say that I learned A LOT over the course of a single day. It just so happens that about two weeks ago, I had that opportunity. Below is a brief review about my experience with Jon Payne’s, an instructor through Suarez International, “Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting” force on force class.

    I woke up “early” on Saturday October 15th just like many other people in Baton Rouge. As I was heading to get my butt kicked in the middle-of-nowhere Zachery, everyone else was heading out to LSU for a day of food and drinking. I get there right before 9 AM and find out that I am the youngest guy there by quite a bit (with some near 40 years older than me), so that gives me a little bit of hope that the butt-kicking won’t be too bad (I was wrong).
    We start off the day by meeting each other and learning a little bit about Jon’s history, followed by a brief overview of what the 7 of us would cover throughout the day. After the introductory briefing, Jon goes into extensive detail on the safety requirements that would be followed all day. He ensured that we would all come out of the day in one (slightly bruised up) piece.

    After concluding the safety discussion, we get right into the course by starting with a “drown proofing” drill that gets everyone used to being pushed and shoved by the different attendees. Shortly thereafter we start working on redirecting the force and achieving flank. Having taught martial arts for a few years and wrestling for a few, this was no problem and quite a lot of fun.
    Next we cover the “Matt Dillion” drill with airsoft pistols and learn that draw speed is not nearly as important as moving off the “X”. With that in mind, we roll into drills on getting off the X and getting out of the way of a muzzle pointed at us. After a little practice (20 minutes or so), we start practicing the same drill, but drawing and shooting. This part was still fine and dandy and wasn’t too incredibly challenging, though it definitely reinforced my previous classes on force-on-force and how to move out of the way of a muzzle.

    The next part is where the day got fun. We moved back to hands on drills focusing on being grabbed and what not. This part quickly moved into you being knocked (or thrown) onto the ground and then ground fighting.
    So we move into ground fighting and I am like, “hey, this is my atmosphere, I did Brazilian Jui Jitsu for years! This should be easy!” Well, it turns out BJJ didn’t prepare me at all for advanced weapon retention techniques while on the ground. At one point I had one of the participants in my guard and he reached forward towards my face (which I thought was an awful idea on his part). I immediately caught the most beautiful arm bar ever. It was absolutely perfect. The only problem was that he knew I would go for that and he seemingly (I learned) wanted me to do that. The second I swept my leg around, he reached down and pulled my own pistol from my holster and proceeded to shoot me in the face with it. Twice. That was a major eye-opener for me that great BJJ skills don’t trump someone having a weapon (or your weapon) while on the ground.

    Later we moved into more ground fighting type scenarios, but with two people coming at you. I am in much better shape than most of the guys, and am at least 10 years younger than all of them, so I thought that would help me somewhat. It might have somewhat, but it didn’t matter and I still got my butt-kicked repeatedly. We then turned those drills into learning lessons for proper (or better) techniques to follow if you end up in a situation like that. One thing that I had never done before is shooting from the ground or shooting while standing up. Learning the proper techniques for those two skills was great and definitely helped later in the class!

    Skipping forward a bit, later in the day we covered “hold-up” type situations with both a gun and a knife. I had done these before in my martial arts training, but never with the option of drawing your own gun (when applicable). I learned a good bit while honing my previously learned skills.

    After a short break, we moved from airsoft rounds to live-fire training. Here we worked on some of the techniques learned earlier as well as a few new ones. One thing that we covered that I had never really practiced much was drawing with a non-dominant hand and various ways to engage after that. Some of the techniques were truly interesting. And I learned that definitely should practice my accuracy with my non-dominant hand a little!!
    The very last part was shooting from the ground and shooting while moving. Both were fun and a great conclusion to an awesome day!

    After cleaning up, we participated in a brief summary discussion of what we learned throughout the day as well as a few tips to practice later.

    All in all it was a great experience. I learned way more than I initially expected I would and honed many skills that I had learned previously. I was re-reminded that bring younger and in much better shape is not always an advantage. Oh, and I also got a few lessons in weapon retention from some of the LEOs there. Seriously, those guys had me completely beat in that area, but I definitely learned a lot (and learned that I need to practice more!). Jon was incredibly professional throughout the class and ensured that we all stayed safe and didn’t rough up on each other too badly. I would highly recommend the class to anyone looking to expand their knowledge or to refine their current skill level.

    Thanks again to Jon for the great day! Y’all let me know if you have any questions!

    Austin
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  2. #2
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    I work with Jon, just have not trained with Jon. I am sure even after over 30 years of teaching firearms I can still learn a bunch!!

    Glad you had a good class and picked up some more tips!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig220 View Post
    I work with Jon, just have not trained with Jon. I am sure even after over 30 years of teaching firearms I can still learn a bunch!!

    Glad you had a good class and picked up some more tips!
    You should tackle him one day and try to get a (training / fake) gun from him. It's fun. :]
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
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    Austin,
    I don't get what you are saying right here:
    "One thing that I had never done before is shooting from the ground or shooting while standing up. Learning the proper techniques for those two skills"

    I can assume you are referring to shooting while rising to a standing position.

    When I first started shooting it was always standing. Then eventually I learned prone with a rifle. (first time I ever shot prone was at a match) Even then prone with a handgun seemed odd. I have shot HG prone both face up and face down. It is a big hurdle to shoot past any body parts in front of your own muzzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Request Dust Off View Post
    I can assume you are referring to shooting while rising to a standing position.
    If that's what he means, I'll get the popcorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    If that's what he means, I'll get the popcorn.
    I am asking for clarification as to what he means. I can also assume he has shot standing up before as that is what we tend to do at square ranges.

    Pretty good write up and observations by Austin BR. Just asking for clarification as I don't fully grasp what he is conveying in the red text.

    No need for popcorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Request Dust Off View Post
    I am asking for clarification as to what he means. I can also assume he has shot standing up before as that is what we tend to do at square ranges.

    Pretty good write up and observations by Austin BR. Just asking for clarification as I don't fully grasp what he is conveying in the red text.

    No need for popcorn.
    I understand you are asking for clarification. I'd like him to clarify too, because if he means what I think he means, we're gonna need popcorn.

    Shooting while you are trying to stand up, from any position, is a terrible idea.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Request Dust Off View Post
    Austin,
    I don't get what you are saying right here:
    "One thing that I had never done before is shooting from the ground or shooting while standing up. Learning the proper techniques for those two skills"

    I can assume you are referring to shooting while rising to a standing position.

    When I first started shooting it was always standing. Then eventually I learned prone with a rifle. (first time I ever shot prone was at a match) Even then prone with a handgun seemed odd. I have shot HG prone both face up and face down. It is a big hurdle to shoot past any body parts in front of your own muzzle.
    I was busy last night haha. What I meant is shooting on the ground, and then the proper way to get up and start (re)engaging a target without pointing the muzzle at yourself or in an unattended direction. Basically a take on the "Turkish Get-Up"

    I would hope I've shot while standing before lololol
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinBR View Post
    I was busy last night haha. What I meant is shooting on the ground, and then the proper way to get up and start (re)engaging a target without pointing the muzzle at yourself or in an unattended direction. Basically a take on the "Turkish Get-Up"

    I would hope I've shot while standing before lololol
    So to clarify, you don't actually mean firing rounds while in the transition from sitting/kneeling/prone to standing up.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    So to clarify, you don't actually mean firing rounds while in the transition from sitting/kneeling/prone to standing up.
    Meh, somewhat. The firing happened at various points in the "Turkish-Get-Up". Hard to explain via text.
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
    --Michael Jordan


    Failing to plan is planning to fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I understand you are asking for clarification. I'd like him to clarify too, because if he means what I think he means, we're gonna need popcorn.

    Shooting while you are trying to stand up, from any position, is a terrible idea.
    Why no, no it isn't.


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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper1969 View Post
    Why no, no it isn't.
    Care to elaborate?

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    Thank you, Skipper. Often the tactics and strategies of 20 year men are questioned, as if that gives the one posing the question an automatic 20 years experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    Nothing to elaborate. It wasn't unsafe, it's not a bad idea, it's a very useful set of skills if you find yourself in that predicament.


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    Thank you, Austin, for posting. It sounds like it was time well spent. Hopefully can get out that way soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enigmedic View Post
    Thank you, Skipper. Often the tactics and strategies of 20 year men are questioned, as if that gives the one posing the question an automatic 20 years experience.
    Incorrect. You'd be a fool to never question anything in life.

    I've questioned this topic to instructors with more than 20 years experience and the answer was not what Jon Payne says it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by skipper1969 View Post
    Nothing to elaborate. It wasn't unsafe, it's not a bad idea, it's a very useful set of skills if you find yourself in that predicament.
    Nothing to elaborate? That's laughable.
    Last edited by DAVE_M; October 31st, 2016 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    Incorrect. You'd be a fool to never question anything in life.

    I've questioned this topic to instructors with more than 20 years experience and the answer was not what Jon Payne says it is.



    Nothing to elaborate? That's laughable.
    Thank you for your input. Good bye.


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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper1969 View Post
    Thank you for your input. Good bye.
    Thanks for the reminder that I won't be attending any Suarez classes in my lifetime.

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    Zero to Five Feet Gunfighting Review

    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    Thanks for the reminder that I won't be attending any Suarez classes in my lifetime.
    That's great, because you won't be missed. Now Good day sir.


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    Last edited by skipper1969; October 31st, 2016 at 10:14 AM.

  20. #20
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    Is this the same content?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kvk_acDIK5I

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