Educate me on ethanol problems in engines.

I saw the thread on where to buy ethanol free gas, so while the topic is current I thought I'd ask why can't engine makers produce an engine that can handle ethanol. It seems like with today's technology they could produce parts such as fuel lines, gaskets, and o rings to combat the destructive forces of ethanol. I would pay more for an engine like this in weed eaters, chain saws and for that matter my truck engine. Tell me where I'm going off the tracks with my thoughts.

Newer vehicles can handle it fine. Small engines don't mainly because they don't get used often so the ethanol gas sits in the tanks which creates condensation.

I'm not sure what to think of E85 though. Toyota for example recommends cutting your oil change interval in half if using E85 even only 50% of the time. So it can't be good for the engine.

The biggest ethanol issue is in engines vented to atmosphere with no carbon. The ethanol is an alcohol and therefore is very hydro..... can't remember the term, but meaning, it loves water. Air gets sucked into the tank and water gets absorbed. That water leads to rust. The alcohol also evaporates fast which begins varnishing quicker.

The fix of this is a good carbon canister to absorb water. Cars do this. Small engines are just starting to put carbon in the gas cap vent but I am not sure it's enough to matter. Plus there is no purge system to clean the carbon out.

Therefore, on small engines (lawnmower, tiller, chain saw, 4 wheeler) I run ethanol free. In cars, it don't matter. Sure, gas mileage suffers but 1) it's still more expensive to run ethanol free at a better mileage and 2) my car requires 93.

As far as materials, anything made in the last 10 years will resist the ethanol pretty much. If not, it'll say it.

As far as e85, it has its place. Again, mileage will drop quite a bit due to less energy, but as long as the system is designed for it (including tuning) then it's fine.

Personally, I still think it's a racket, the whole ethanol thing. It's not less pollutive, and there's people who could eat that corn.

sandman7925 said:

Newer vehicles can handle it fine. Small engines don't mainly because they don't get used often so the ethanol gas sits in the tanks which creates condensation.

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Less BTU per gallon so less mileage. Yes injected does great with it. But carb motors get vapor locked hot restarts suck. Storage is not as good. I store old cars and small gas engines with with 110 with lead. Barrels of 100% gas gets stabil for storm generator
Had one barrel I forgot to rotate and was dated 5 years. Nice metal, sealed barrels, with 100% gas and stabil was 100% fine. Ran like it was just taken oyt the has station pump.
Yes they have Staybil for ethanol gas. It works but not as long self life Yesterday my wife pressure washed the deck with some 3 year old barrel 100% gas. The washer was stored with 110 w/lead for a year and started right up. Storing it in a plastic container or tanks with regular gas treated cuts down on time thus the 110. If stored in equipment.
Crazy as it is I once ran a 8 hp Briggs on 110, a whole barrel worth! When the unlead 87 ran out. Gustaf hit! No power fir long time, No stations had power. And had to run that old gen i bought used in 1991. That poor old thing ran like a champ! Lights on, TV, Fans, Fridge, Freezer, computer, Cooked for lots of PPL on gas stove everything all on.
Was priceless

Ethanol in gasoline is another of our federal government's fiascoes. Currently 10-15% dilution rate in hydrocarbon based gasoline streams at the pumps, except E85.
A few facts about ethanol addition:

Ethanol is water soluble, hydrocarbon fuels (pure gasoline) are not. The ethanol in gasoline never mixes completely. Left to sit, they will separate readily. Read more corrosion potential than straight HC gasoline.

Research ethanol production costs, currently substantially more than hydrocarbon gasoline production/refining.
Ethanol contains less potential energy than hydrocarbon based gasoline, so in the end you go less miles per gallon. About 30% less energy if the fuel is 100% ethanol. Ditto fuel mileage.

Ethanol readily attracts water condensation when stored in a vented container. It also attacks some rubber seals/gaskets long term.

Pure ethanol does have a substantially higher octane rating, hence it deters detonation/pre-ignition in IC engines. E85 at the local pumps is a hot rodder's/gearhead's dream. And E85 is cheaper than pump 87 octane gasoline.

So you see people looking to store fuel/gasoline for long term, say to run a generator, shy away from ethanol blended gasolines. Anyone storing gasoline should be adding a fuel stabilizer additive like Stabil, and definitely with ethanol/HC gasoline blends.

Ethanol is a renewable fuel source, read corn or sugarcane. It is another government fiasco to reduce our dependence on hydrocarbon based fuels/reserves. Looked like a really great idea when gas was $4 plus a gallon.

I spent 30 years in an oil refinery, operations department. Refining gasoline, diesel, kerosene, butane, propane, and asphalt products. Oh and I did some coke too
petroleum coke that is.

I bought some ethanol free fuel to avoid all the problems and the fuel had ethanol anyway. Don't know what the screw up was but the bottom line was a funked up carb. It turned a lot of carb internals green and clogged jets. Luckily for me the guy next to me had a fix.

Now I drain fuel from carb, flush it and disconnect the fuel line. The fuel line left off is the signal the the carb is in storage mode. I think draining works better than running the fuel out if possible. For flush I use WD40. Some use fuel with Marvel Mystery Oil. My feeling is why introduce fuel back into the system of fuel is the problem during storage. I can also drain the tank easily enough and cycle the fuel through a funnel that won't let water through.

So I guess the question from me is how do you know if fuel is really ethanol free?

I was just searching for reference material on gas RVP and ran across this writeup. Usefull info.

FIGHTING THE EFFECTS OF ETHANOL

While not ideal, there are a few solutions that do help. First, use fresh gas. Under ideal conditions, E10 gas has a shelf life of 100 days, or roughly three months. Left to its own, it will have significant separation after that point causing poor performance and greater deterioration of susceptible components.

Secondly, absorbed moisture is the enemy. Take steps to control it: Keep gas cans sealed; store your gas in a location where there are not big temperature swings to cause condensation and keep your tanks full. Air contains moisture and allows for condensation. So, the less air, the less moisture.

Many of us in the northern areas of the country do not use our vehicles in the winter, so this leaves a full tank of fuel that will cause issues if left over the 100 days. Fortunately, there are products that will delay (not stop) the effects of phase separation.

Two major brands are Stabil and StarTron, although there are a number of others marketed under a variety of names. I recommend using both religiously when you add gas to your vehicle. I have used both successfully, but I believe StarTron does a better job of negating the effects of the ethanol. Having dealt with many deteriorated fuel lines on vehicles and equipment, I switched to it a couple years ago and have not had a problem since. Keep in mind any stabilizer must be added before phase separation occurs.

One final tip on additives: Fuel stabilizers and upper cylinder lubricants (ex. Marvel Mystery Oil) are the only additives that are recommended with ethanol. Any of the ‘cleaning* type products such as carburetor/injector/engine cleaners contain high levels of alcohol as their primary ingredient. All you are doing is adding more of the same ingredient that is likely causing your issue to begin with!

Contrary to any claims, the effects of phase separation are irreversible. Bad gas will never become good again.

source: http://www.militarytrader.com/military-vehicles-news/notes-from-the-field-ethanol-vapor-lock-and-other-gas-woes

Hydrophillic is the word you are looking for. Like others have said the absorbed water is the major problem, followed closely by material compatability with the polymer hoses, gaskets and such. Also the ethanol is not there to replace gasoline so much as it is replacing MTBE.

Ethanol gas doesn't have to sit long in small engine tanks to drop out water and start rust. I've had water-in-fuel tank problems with water dropping out in fuel-injected Honda 4wheeler and Yamaha motorcycle that would not start, were missing and then died. Had to remove both tanks to clean out the water, and I ran these every 2-3 weeks, if not weekly.

In carbs in lawnmowers and generators, the bowl actually had free water (as well as rust) collected in the bottom, as well as in the tank. The fuel might stay a month or two between uses.

All equipment was designed for E10 gas.

I'd be curious to see how much water was in the bottom of the fuel tank of my 2005 Dodge Caravan w/300K+ miles, but I haven't had fuel problems yet.

Trailboss said:

I'd be curious to see how much water was in the bottom of the fuel tank of my 2005 Dodge Caravan w/300K+ miles, but I haven't had fuel problems yet.

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Water is much heavier that gasoline, has a higher specific gravity. Vehicle fuel systems take suction off the bottom of the tank, hence most water is drawn into the fuel system pronto. Your Caravan with 300k miles probably has as much water in it as my 2012 Camaro with 50k miles.

Well now I know way more than I used to. I do add stabil to the gas I buy and try to keep the fuel in my generators for short periods. As a matter of fact it's time to run my generators and get them ready for storm season. I gotta say we have a bunch of damn geniuses on this site.

Ethanol does pose problems for the marine world. E10 is generally OK but E15 is real problem.

One early problem discovered, was that boats with fiberglass fuel tanks (which is common) had the fiberglass fuel tank in effect dissolve due to the ethanol. This generally occurred in boats made pre-1991.
It does not affect aluminum or steel fuel tanks.

Mercury marine's view on ethanol.
http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/mercethanol.html

Boats US on ethanol
http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/affairs.asp

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp


West marine (E-10 ok E-15 is not).
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Busting-Ethanol-Fuel-Myths