to SBR or NOT TO SBR, that is the question....

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  • Bigchillin83

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    Feb 27, 2012
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    well fellas, got a quick couple question for yall, one of those what would you do... heres the situation..

    I have a trust, I have 2 trusties (wife,family), 3 suppressors, 2 sbrs already approved and rocking and rolling. I picked up the cz evo scorpion pistol with a SBT-EVO brace on a trade, and man that thing is sweet!!!! still waiting on an adapter to come in the mail for my hybrid, and got 1000 rounds of 147gr subs should be in any day now :D I cant wait... Well my wife who I am very lucky loves and understands my love for guns, needles to say she wanted one :mamoru: so I was able to pick her up one a cz-evo pistol with a 922r us stock kit with out brace.

    Heres the question: I have 2 of them now one with a SBT-EVO folding brace, and one with nothing on it now. Those of you who have messed with the cz scorpion is it a gun that's gonna stick around for a while? parts available? good customer service? proven reliable? I have only put about 200 rounds in the back yard through them with no issues.. My wife is all for SBR'ing both of them :eek3:
    this will be the first 2 tax stamps applied for after the 41F change for me. With the ATF letters about the sb tactical brace would you just buy another brace for one of the scorpions or do the new paper work with finger prints and photo work and sbr both of them and stock them up, It would be about the same price either way if I have to buy another brace or file tax stamps, so really no saving any money lol.... I guess my concern is sbring and commiting to a gun that might be a dead gun in a couple years with parts ect... Might I add Mr Dale Landry (very easy to deal with, almost 2 easy!!!)has suckered me into another suppressor so as soon as I get some stuff straight I will be filing for a stamp regardless with the new requirements.. Also a shot out to MR JOSEPH (trust attorney) that dude called me back on a sunday afternoon to answer any questions I had about the new 41F process and requirements A++++ dude. So the other thing is about not being able to bring sbrs across state lines without without approved leter from atf, which from what I understand isn't a big issue to get approved, but where as a braced pistol can be taken anywhere its legal..

    to be honest with the new ATF letter about the sb tactical brace and 99.9% of all shooting would be on private property behind my house I am leaning more and more twards the brace

    Thanks fellas, any info on how your scorpion performs, your experience with it, whether you regret or love it after sbring it, anything you can add would be much appreciated!!!!!
     

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    hunter5567

    Monolithic Mentor
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    Why do you have to use the new rules in obtaining your tax stamp. Weren't you grandfathered in to the old rules since you had your trust formed and silencers applied for before the rule change last year? I thought that was the whole point of getting it done last year before the rule change so you can add future items to your already established Trust under the old rules.
     
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    Bigchillin83

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    Your items are grandfathered in and no change is needed for those items, any new items require the new standards to be added to your trust, diff is also with a trust now, you don't need chief LEO sign off for aprovals also... And yes that's why I hurried and got them applied because I didn't wanna deal with the new change... But guns/suppressors are my "kryptonite"... I must have more....yes yes I know I have a problem,and that's the first step is admitting it lol
     

    hunter5567

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    Well that sucks, I thought any future items I would be able to add under the old rules.
    I almost wish I had waited till after the rule change, especially after prices plummeted on suppressors. I guess it doesn't matter in my case as I won't be adding any new suppressors unless they are half price or less from the manufacturer.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    I haven't really seen a price drop in the suppressors... I have seen some benefits I guess like silencerco offering a $200 credit ect.. but they seem to be around the same price to me
     

    rcm192

    Sic semper tyrannis
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    I SBRed mine. It is by far my favorite 9mm SBR in my collection. There is so much nice stuff out and even more coming out for the platform. Invest in another stamp!
     

    Bigchillin83

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    I will admit, with the compactness, super light recoil, very cheap to shoot, subsonics are very cheap, suppress very well.. this thing is fastly growing on me
     

    JoeLiberty

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    I certainly wouldn't go around asking questions like this on a public forum as it could be used against you. It suggests your intent is to build an SBR. Especially since you actually own the stock kit.
    If you intend to make an SBR, do the form 1. I see the Scorpion only growing in popularity. The interstate travel is not that big a deal. You can submit a 5320.20 with a date range of up to a year, so I submit one for each state I may conceivably want to visit, and 'renew' every year.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    so your saying just because I have a 922r stock kit in my possession is could be used against me??? I aint buying that one... if that was the case that means that while waiting on a sbr approved lower you cant have possession of a buffer tube and stock in your house or that would suggest intent???? Plus if I submit for a tax stamp to build an sbr.... uhhh then that is my "intent" at that time, that's why im requesting to build one.... Or would be like having a pistol lower in the safe for a future pistol build and having a buffer and stock for a future rifle build... And I don't know how you took it but the "intent" was never to shoulder a brace at all, it was the mere fact that there was a new letter submitted from the atf that state many facts and many clarifications that were left in the grey area with previous letter, I would never "sholder one" but as far as asking a question lol theres 1000's of videos on youtube now of people shouldering and telling you they are shouldering a brace now.. they arnt perusing this silly issues... they got way to many bigger fish to fry... in all the resurch of sbr I have found only 1 man arrest for shouldering a brace at a range by local police, they then called the atf to notify them of what happened and how to proceed. The atf agent told them to let him go, they don't have a case and even if they did they wouldn't proceed with any charges... they had to let him go, with no charges

    I certainly wouldn't go around asking questions like this on a public forum as it could be used against you. It suggests your intent is to build an SBR. Especially since you actually own the stock kit.
    If you intend to make an SBR, do the form 1. I see the Scorpion only growing in popularity. The interstate travel is not that big a deal. You can submit a 5320.20 with a date range of up to a year, so I submit one for each state I may conceivably want to visit, and 'renew' every year.
     
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    krotsman

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    BAFTE priorities:
    Investigative priorities focus on armed violent offenders and career criminals, narcotics traffickers, narco-terrorists, violent gangs, and domestic and international arms traffickers. Sections 924(c) and (e) of Title 18 of the United States Code provide mandatory and enhanced sentencing guidelines for armed career criminals and narcotics traffickers as well as other dangerous armed criminals.

    They really aren't so worried about generally law-abiding citizens with stocks vs. braces. And, if you think about it, the only reason we talk about it and are concerned about it, is because we ARE law-abiding. If we were criminals, we wouldn't give a **** about the difference and wouldn't need to discuss.:mamoru:
     

    JoeLiberty

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    so your saying just because I have a 922r stock kit in my possession is could be used against me??? I aint buying that one... if that was the case that means that while waiting on a sbr approved lower you cant have possession of a buffer tube and stock in your house or that would suggest intent???? Plus if I submit for a tax stamp to build an sbr.... uhhh then that is my "intent" at that time, that's why im requesting to build one.... Or would be like having a pistol lower in the safe for a future pistol build and having a buffer and stock for a future rifle build... And I don't know how you took it but the "intent" was never to shoulder a brace at all, it was the mere fact that there was a new letter submitted from the atf that state many facts and many clarifications that were left in the grey area with previous letter, I would never "sholder one" but as far as asking a question lol theres 1000's of videos on youtube now of people shouldering and telling you they are shouldering a brace now.. they arnt perusing this silly issues... they got way to many bigger fish to fry... in all the resurch of sbr I have found only 1 man arrest for shouldering a brace at a range by local police, they then called the atf to notify them of what happened and how to proceed. The atf agent told them to let him go, they don't have a case and even if they did they wouldn't proceed with any charges... they had to let him go, with no charges

    Hey, calm down. I'm on your side. You do you... probably it's fine... I'm just saying I wouldn't do that. Most people with NFA-controlled items are overly cautious and I'm not going to poke the bear. I think it was everyone bragging about their pistol brace-SBR 'loophole' (and those actually telling/asking the ATF about it) that brought on that first anti-pistol brace letter in the first place.

    I've never seen a test case, and I believe your odds of getting in trouble are quite low, but most people recommend that you file, get approval, THEN buy the stock. With AR pistols and T/C kits it's a bit different, since there are ways to legally assemble those (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co.). But if you own a stock and you don't own any rifle length barrels, that doesn't look too good. There was a guy arrested for that ( https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/ ).

    Personally, I wouldn't use "I saw people on YouTube doing it" as a metric for what is legal...

    The NFA defines rifles as "intended to be fired from the shoulder", so yes intent is absolutely a factor. It's not the only factor, but it certainly is one. It must also be 'designed or redesigned' (which the ATF letter addresses) and 'made or remade'. So if you combine: the purchase and possession of the stock, the post here, the attachment of a pistol brace, you using it at the range as a stock and in no other way, and a dick-head DA, that might be enough to get you in trouble. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...siders-obama-era-policy-on-stabilizing-braces)
    What seems clear, however, is that attaching a stabilizing brace to a pistol expressly to create an SBR to fire from the shoulder – particularly when it involves alterations or processes that would undermine the use of the brace for its intended purpose of facilitating one-handed pistol fire – creates an NFA firearm.

    For you it's not a money thing, it's not really a hassle thing, there's really no downside. You are not stuck with it. Since it was originally made as a pistol, you can always change it back into a pistol later and sell it (No tax stamp required). You were asking for opinions, that's mine. I love my SBRs and my SBR'd PCC is my new favorite gun. Do it. No regrets.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    Lol didn't mean to pop off!!! Was just talking!! If I sbr it, then Later decide to configure back to pistol, what is done about the engraving? Is it left on or removed? Again wasn't try to be disrespectful, just replying lol
     

    JoeLiberty

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    Lol didn't mean to pop off!!! Was just talking!! If I sbr it, then Later decide to configure back to pistol, what is done about the engraving? Is it left on or removed? Again wasn't try to be disrespectful, just replying lol

    No problem. It is hard to convey tone in text format. Where the hell is the sarcasm font? Amirite?
    I think you could do either. I'd consult the guy who did your trust to be sure.
     

    cajun 22

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    What Joe meant was not to have a stock for that weapon in your possession without the form 1. Keep it at a buddy's, your sister's, or dad's house until you get the stamp back. The term is something like " constructive intent ". You have no other weapon that the stock could go on, so you are in possession of parts to make an SBR. It's highly unlikely that anything would happen and I'm sure most everyone in this game has walked this line at some time. All it takes is one incident to get the "man" looking at your stuff. Best to er on the side of caution.

    I say SBR it. I have shot one and they are pretty sweet.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    i understand Cajun, ill let a buddy hold the stock just for safe measures... both the scorpions are brand new,ones a gen1 other is a gen2. im gonna pick up another brace, and utilize them with that for a couple weeks suppressed and un suppressed 300-500 rounds through each to verify they are good shooting and reliable and not lemons. not that i think i will have a problem. would just hate to sbr both and then figure out i have an issue with one. Plus i have to wait for my trusties to get there prints and photo before i can proceed , they better hurry before they get kicked off the trust,lol.. thanks for all the info yall have contributed on the topic... like you have stated, i have went through the trouble to get the trust, its a cake walk now to add items well now a little diff cake walk but you know... i would heavily lean on keeping them braced if i didn't have a trust with sbr's and suppressors already in the system. So i guess now its just a put them through the test before i commit with the stamp and the 8 month wait, as i stated im getting another suppressor anyway so just assume do it all at once, not to often the wife says just get another suppressor, so i gotta take her up on that before she changes her mind!!!! Any body know the wait time for form1 and form4's now.. hopefully they should be coming down
     
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    X-ray21

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    The avg. wait time for most recent NFA Tracker data appears to be a lot higher than from a couple of weeks ago. I'm concerned its going to continue to climb as they start to process the forms from last summer. Of course that didn't stop me from buying an Omega last week.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    yea I don't see why it hasn't went down by now, they should be just about done with the mass influx... I submitted my 2 form1's the last day before the change and they were approved in april... I figured they would be back to the 3month wait
     

    Bigchillin83

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    just got my adapter in for my hybrid to go on evo and got my subsonic ammo in... man that thing is a blast, very quiet and very fun to shoot

    pic is cz scorpion with the SBTEVO BRACE with direct thread hybrid compared to my 10.5" 7.62x39 SBR with OMEGA30
     

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