Where do you draw the line?

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  • JBP55

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    It happened in California, land of liberals. I hope the good guy is not charged.
     

    DaSouthernYankee

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    It's hard to tell if he was still fighting after they went to the ground, however they guy was obviously threatening potential harm to anyone in there so keep fighting till the threat stops.

    Also take note of how ineffective the chair to the back was. If your gonna cold-clock someone with furniture, side swipe the noggin!


    Sent from an unidentified bayou mobile device
     

    Saintsfan6

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    What a damn joke. The perps parents are a bunch of low life's as well. I wouldn't have lost any sleep if the perp bled out on the floor. I would say no chance he gets anywhere with the lawsuit, but it is California...
     

    thperez1972

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    http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Starbucks-robbery-crime-stabbing-Good-Samaritan-12213420.php

    I'd argue that if the guy kept fighting, clearly more stab wounds were necessary to stop the threat. Thoughts?

    As a police officer, my perspective of the incident is a little biased toward what I would have done in that situation to take the guy into custody. But the Good Guy (GG) is not the police. How far is he legally allowed to go to detain the Bad Guy (BG) until the police arrive? The BG was trying to leave the store. As such, can it be argued he was no longer a threat? He was fighting with the GG because the GG was not letting him leave. It's easy to say the BG was a threat to society based on his willingness to commit the crime. That's the rationale behind shooting a fleeing felon and the Supreme Court said there has to be more substantial evidence to do so.

    In my opinion, the BG was a threat because the GG was detaining him. So does a civilian have any legal limits on how far he can go to detain someone who he has observed committing a crime? And does it matter if the crime was a misdemeanor or a felony?
     

    AustinBR

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    As a police officer, my perspective of the incident is a little biased toward what I would have done in that situation to take the guy into custody. But the Good Guy (GG) is not the police. How far is he legally allowed to go to detain the Bad Guy (BG) until the police arrive? The BG was trying to leave the store. As such, can it be argued he was no longer a threat? He was fighting with the GG because the GG was not letting him leave. It's easy to say the BG was a threat to society based on his willingness to commit the crime. That's the rationale behind shooting a fleeing felon and the Supreme Court said there has to be more substantial evidence to do so.

    In my opinion, the BG was a threat because the GG was detaining him. So does a civilian have any legal limits on how far he can go to detain someone who he has observed committing a crime? And does it matter if the crime was a misdemeanor or a felony?

    Very valid points there. I wonder this though: The GG sees the BG potentially about to kill someone with a weapon (gun or knife, regardless of how real the gun is). The GG takes the BG down, and at that point is engaging in self-defense to keep the BG from poking him with the knife. He can't possibly know if he lets the guy go if he will leave or take three steps forward, turn around, and shoot him or reengage with a knife. With that in mind, his only options are to disable him physically, take his (known / visible) weapons, or hold him down until someone arrives with means of detaining him.

    I don't think once he engaged, it would be safe for him to let off and hope the guy runs off. So he was in imminent danger the entire time.

    All of that being said, attacking someone holding a gun and knife with just a flimsy chair seems to be an awful idea. It would likely have been best to leave the store and call 911.
     

    Pacioli

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    As a police officer, my perspective of the incident is a little biased toward what I would have done in that situation to take the guy into custody. But the Good Guy (GG) is not the police. How far is he legally allowed to go to detain the Bad Guy (BG) until the police arrive? The BG was trying to leave the store. As such, can it be argued he was no longer a threat? He was fighting with the GG because the GG was not letting him leave. It's easy to say the BG was a threat to society based on his willingness to commit the crime. That's the rationale behind shooting a fleeing felon and the Supreme Court said there has to be more substantial evidence to do so.

    In my opinion, the BG was a threat because the GG was detaining him. So does a civilian have any legal limits on how far he can go to detain someone who he has observed committing a crime? And does it matter if the crime was a misdemeanor or a felony?

    I don't see where the BG sought to disengage. The movement of the fight went towards the door, but the fight looked like it was still on with two active participants. In terms of judging the GG actions, once the fight is on the BG is the same threat until it's over. The BG did look like he was trying to leave at the end, but that was after the GG seemed to disengage.
     

    oleheat

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    Flores was arrested after he allegedly tried to rob a barista with a fake gun and Transformers mask


    Sounds like it was all just a big misunderstanding on Flores' part- he didn't realize he grabbed the mask that transforms you into a pin cushion.



    [video]https://media.tenor.com/videos/c7062290cd3a2d6c9d2cb5470864359b/mp4[/video]
     
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    Deerslayer440

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    As a police officer, my perspective of the incident is a little biased toward what I would have done in that situation to take the guy into custody. But the Good Guy (GG) is not the police. How far is he legally allowed to go to detain the Bad Guy (BG) until the police arrive? The BG was trying to leave the store. As such, can it be argued he was no longer a threat? He was fighting with the GG because the GG was not letting him leave. It's easy to say the BG was a threat to society based on his willingness to commit the crime. That's the rationale behind shooting a fleeing felon and the Supreme Court said there has to be more substantial evidence to do so.

    In my opinion, the BG was a threat because the GG was detaining him. So does a civilian have any legal limits on how far he can go to detain someone who he has observed committing a crime? And does it matter if the crime was a misdemeanor or a felony?

    And here is a perfect example of what is wrong with the leo of today.

    I remember when the police was happy the GG was involved and helped others from dying.Now they just want yu to call them so they can take
    45 minutes to get there to say,oh the BG left already.Sure we will keep
    an eye out for him.Sorry the 3 dead people had to die for nothing.

    What happened to the good ol days of GG helping out others to not die.
    I'm just amazedat the words that come out of leo today.Most are helpful,but some ,such as this are just a nusense to society.\

    Maybe instead of make america great again,maybe say.Bring America back again!!!!
     
    Last edited:

    thperez1972

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    And here is a perfect example of what is wrong with the leo of today.

    I remember when the police was happy the GG was involved and helped others from dying.Now they just want yu to call them so they can take
    45 minutes to get there to say,oh the BG left already.Sure we will keep
    an eye out for him.Sorry the 3 dead people had to die for nothing.

    What happened to the good ol days of GG helping out others to not die.
    I'm just amazedat the words that come out of leo today.Most are helpful,but some ,such as this are just a nusense to society.\

    Maybe instead of make america great again,maybe say.Bring America back again!!!!

    What words are you amazed I said? I never said if I was happy or unhappy the GG stepped up. I never said if I agreed or disagreed with the GG's actions. I simply asked some questions to continue what seems to be a civil discussion devoid of personal attacks. I offered my observations based on the perspective from which I viewed the video.

    You've assigned my opinion of the GG's actions to me and then judged me based on that assigned opinion. You've labeled me a nuisance based on an opinion I never gave. Perhaps it's not me who is an example of what is wrong with society today. Perhaps you are the poster child. I've not stated my opinion and chose, rather, to engage is a discussion, allowing myself to change my opinion if the discussion revealed information that warranted such a change. You, on the other hand, seem to have an opinion that you feel must be shared by all others. And you feel anyone who doesn't share your opinion must be a nuisance to society.

    So feel free to ignore my posts if you don't like them or don't agree with them or don't agree with something that was never said in them. Otherwise, I accept your apology for jumping to conclusions and we can go back to the civil discussion.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    With that in mind, his only options are to disable him physically, take his (known / visible) weapons, or hold him down until someone arrives with means of detaining him.

    I don't think once he engaged, it would be safe for him to let off and hope the guy runs off. So he was in imminent danger the entire time.

    I agree on his options. At some point, the GG obviously disarmed the BG, at least with respect to the knife. If the BG ended up dropping the gun near the counter and the GG got the knife away, the BG is no longer visibly armed. Is the BG still a threat to the GG at that point? There are other factors not mentioned. Size/age/strength differences can also be factors.
     

    AustinBR

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    Or say that he never saw the BG drop the gun. It's a minor difference but that way he's covered if the BG did drop the gun at some point during the altercation.

    I didn't see the guy drop the gun the original time I watched the video (and I haven't rewatched it to verify, but I trust y'all).

    Personally, I believe that regardless of your status, civilian or LEO, you cannot let a possible threat have the option to reengage. If the guy had a gun and a knife, and I managed to get both from him, I would assume he had another gun, and another knife. Giving him the option to retreat and then produce another weapon isn't the smartest idea. Now, that being said, as a non-LEO, I would have walked right out that front door or done nothing, even if I was armed. Most armed robberies do not result in the robber hurting someone. As a LEO, you would have a duty to intervene and detain the BG, so the situation would be entirely different. But once the GG decided to go hand-on, he then had to protect himself. Maybe stabbing the guy a bunch of times was "excessive," but the BG shouldn't have robbed a store with a (fake) gun and a knife.

    From a straight legality standpoint, the GG seemed to be in fear of bodily injury the entire time, and he stopped stabbing the BG whenever that threat ended.
     

    AustinBR

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    And here is a perfect example of what is wrong with the leo of today.

    I remember when the police was happy the GG was involved and helped others from dying.Now they just want yu to call them so they can take
    45 minutes to get there to say,oh the BG left already.Sure we will keep
    an eye out for him.Sorry the 3 dead people had to die for nothing.

    What happened to the good ol days of GG helping out others to not die.
    I'm just amazedat the words that come out of leo today.Most are helpful,but some ,such as this are just a nusense to society.\

    Maybe instead of make america great again,maybe say.Bring America back again!!!!

    You may want to read what he wrote over again...
     

    DaSouthernYankee

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    As a police officer, my perspective of the incident is a little biased toward what I would have done in that situation to take the guy into custody. But the Good Guy (GG) is not the police. How far is he legally allowed to go to detain the Bad Guy (BG) until the police arrive? The BG was trying to leave the store. As such, can it be argued he was no longer a threat?

    That is a good question that should be answered for future GGs sake. But honestly it would be hard to know when a threat is no longer a threat unless they are no longer moving (for whatever reason) otherwise it is a massive gamble with your own safety and the safety of those nearby. Just because he "appears to be unarmed and trying to escape/disengage" does not make it so. It's a hard judgement call.

    Also, don't police assume they are armed until searched and proven otherwise? How would it be unreasonable for a civilian to assume the same?

    (Edited for clarification)

    Sent from an unidentified bayou mobile device
     
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    AustinBR

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    That is a good question that should be answered for future GGs sake. But honestly it would be hard to know when a threat is no longer a threat unless they are no longer moving (for whatever reason) otherwise it is a massive gamble with your own safety and the safety of those nearby. Just because he "appears to be unarmed and trying to escape/disengage" does not make it so. It's a hard judgement call.

    Also, don't police assume they are armed until searched and proven otherwise? How would it be unreasonable for a civilian to assume the same?

    (Edited for clarification)

    Sent from an unidentified bayou mobile device


    I think the GG is okay to either a) defend himself by stabbing the guy if necessary, or b) not stab the guy and detain him somehow. Detaining someone without restraints is rather difficult though, so he seemed to be left with option a. We can't assume he is skilled enough to immobilize the guy without use of a weapon, so logically he must use the weapon, right?
     

    340six

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    I was just talking about this same type thing with someone. As I was on a jury years ago and no way did they get a fair trail.
    When i have more time i will write about it.
    Jury of pears? What a joke, that is. No way, no how!
    And seeing this and where it is...........................
     

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