Was this a legal or illegal search?

moe24 · Sep 25, 2017

Hey guys just something I'm thinking about here.

A couple months ago a guy walked into my shop concealing a BB gun..
All of a sudden my shop got surrounded by the police and they bum rushed inside the store guns blazing at the guy and they're telling him to get on the floor..
They search him and find the BB gun AND they also found meth and drug paraphernalia..

I was talking to the cops asking them what happen and he told me someone called them to report a guy walking around with a handgun in his waistline..(my guess is he went into one of the stores in our shipping center and someone spotted the gun and called the cops on him)

I'm actually glad they got his meth head ass off the streets but was this a legal search?

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Akajun · Sep 25, 2017

yes, under terry.

thperez1972 · Sep 25, 2017

moe24 said:
I'm actually glad they got his meth head ass off the streets but was this a legal search?

The fact you asked the question suggests you may think the search wasn't legal. Is there something regarding the circumstances of the search that bothers you?

AustinBR · Sep 25, 2017

thperez1972 said:
The fact you asked the question suggests you may think the search wasn't legal. Is there something regarding the circumstances of the search that bothers you?

I don't think that was implied, and we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. It seemed like the OP was just curious regarding laws and that is all.

moe24 · Sep 25, 2017

thperez1972 said:
The fact you asked the question suggests you may think the search wasn't legal. Is there something regarding the circumstances of the search that bothers you?

I just asked because me and my co-worker was going back and forth on whether the police had probable cause to search him..
And he said that if the guy gets a good lawer,he can get all the charges droped.

I thought about it and wondered if someone called the cops on a person and say he has a conceal firearm on him,would that be enough probable cause to search him?

If its not probable cause then is it true that the drugs and everything that person got caught with Gets thrown out of court?

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thperez1972 · Sep 25, 2017

AustinBR said:
I don't think that was implied, and we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. It seemed like the OP was just curious regarding laws and that is all.

Don't worry...I'm too tired to get into a long drawn out legal debate.

thperez1972 · Sep 25, 2017

moe24 said:
I just asked because me and my co-worker was going back and forth on whether the police had probable cause to search him..
And he said that if the guy gets a good lawer,he can get all the charges droped.

I thought about it and wondered if someone called the cops on a person and say he has a conceal firearm on him,would that be enough probable cause to search him?

If its not probable cause then is it true that the drugs and everything that person got caught with Gets thrown out of court?

In general, the police cannot act with an anonymous tip being the sole source of reasonable suspicion. They can use the tip to put themselves in the area to observe and collect enough info for reasonable suspicion. If the caller identified themselves or gave other, more specific, information, it could be enough for reasonable suspicion. The more specific information could be something like the stating the suspect has a scar on his right cheek. The added information can show the caller has a familiarity with the suspect.

Once the level of reasonable suspicion has been reached, the suspect can be stopped. A pat down for weapons leads to the gun. Search incident to arrest leads to the drugs.

Pacioli · Sep 26, 2017

Good answer, informative, concise and clear. Thanks.

jdavid1 · Sep 26, 2017

thperez1972 said:
Once the level of reasonable suspicion has been reached, the suspect can be stopped. A pat down for weapons leads to the gun. Search incident to arrest leads to the drugs.

Sorry to hijack a little, but I had a similar situation about reasonable suspicion that I have always been curious about. I had a group of thieves break into a few cars in my neighborhood. I had the perps on video as well as their getaway vehicle. From my video I could clearly see specific color of the car as well as several identifying dents and features. I filed a report and gave the officers my tape. By pure coincidence the next day that vehicle cut me off in town. I called the cops and followed the car to a parking lot where I waited. They told me that describing the exact vehicle that was robbing people wasn't enough for them to send a unit. I couldn't believe that wasn't enough. So I took down the plate and took several pictures.

A month later they found the car and the perps at a trailer park after a shootout. They called me in to identify them and the vehicle. Sure enough it was the same thugs. To this day it still burns me up that they could have prevented a shootout if they would have just came out.

dantheman · Sep 26, 2017

I'm starting the clock ...

JoeLiberty · Sep 26, 2017

moe24 said:
Hey guys just something I'm thinking about here.

A couple months ago a guy walked into my shop concealing a BB gun..
All of a sudden my shop got surrounded by the police and they bum rushed inside the store guns blazing at the guy and they're telling him to get on the floor..
They search him and find the BB gun AND they also found meth and drug paraphernalia..

I was talking to the cops asking them what happen and he told me someone called them to report a guy walking around with a handgun in his waistline..(my guess is he went into one of the stores in our shipping center and someone spotted the gun and called the cops on him)

I'm actually glad they got his meth head ass off the streets but was this a legal search?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Something else must have triggered the cops reactions. That does not sound like a Terry stop. I have called NOPD about a guy concealing a gun (combined with some other suspicious behavior), and their reaction was surprisingly benign. They actually said 'Well LA is an open carry state' and 'concealed carry is also legal here'.

thperez1972 · Sep 26, 2017

jdavid1 said:
Sorry to hijack a little, but I had a similar situation about reasonable suspicion that I have always been curious about. I had a group of thieves break into a few cars in my neighborhood. I had the perps on video as well as their getaway vehicle. From my video I could clearly see specific color of the car as well as several identifying dents and features. I filed a report and gave the officers my tape. By pure coincidence the next day that vehicle cut me off in town. I called the cops and followed the car to a parking lot where I waited. They told me that describing the exact vehicle that was robbing people wasn't enough for them to send a unit. I couldn't believe that wasn't enough. So I took down the plate and took several pictures.

A month later they found the car and the perps at a trailer park after a shootout. They called me in to identify them and the vehicle. Sure enough it was the same thugs. To this day it still burns me up that they could have prevented a shootout if they would have just came out.

When you called the cops, did you call the station or did you speak to an operator? If you spoke to an operator, they may not have known. If you spoke to an actual cop, they also may not have known. Or they may have been lazy. Or they may have felt the criteria for reasonable suspicion had not been met. At minimum, based on the information you've provided, I believe I'd have done a field interview and gotten information on the cat and people in it to pass on to the detective. As a detective, that type of call was great. It had the potential to clear a number of cases.

While I understand it would have prevented a shootout, were there any Innocent bystanders in the shootout?

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moe24 · Sep 26, 2017

JoeLiberty said:
Something else must have triggered the cops reactions. That does not sound like a Terry stop. I have called NOPD about a guy concealing a gun (combined with some other suspicious behavior), and their reaction was surprisingly benign. They actually said 'Well LA is an open carry state' and 'concealed carry is also legal here'.

I'm thinking he was already known to the local police..the way they barged into the store and shouted commands at him and dragged him out the store made me beleive this wasn't his first run in with the local police..

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moe24 · Sep 26, 2017

After reading Terry v. Ohio,It seems like the search was ok..

"Terry v. Ohio,*392 U.S. 1*(1968), was a decision by theUnited States Supreme Court*which held that theFourth Amendment*prohibition on unreasonablesearches and seizures*is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him or her without*probable cause*to*arrest, if the police officer has a*reasonable suspicion*that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."[1]"

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thperez1972 · Sep 26, 2017

if the police officer has a*reasonable suspicion*that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous."[1]"

Is it reasonable to believe a person is dangerous based on an anonymous phone call? Yes and no.

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/22/305993180/court-gives-police-new-power-to-rely-on-anonymous-tips

jdavid1 · Sep 26, 2017

thperez1972 said:
While I understand it would have prevented a shootout, were there any Innocent bystanders in the shootout?

I'm not sure. They wouldn't tell me anything more than it was a shootout between two groups at a trailer park. I assumed they were still working on the case.

dahyer · Oct 2, 2017

The answer is: it depends.... An anonymous complaint will never justify a search..... However, it seems clear that they had more information on him than he was just carrying a concealed weapon. This information might not have been something they were allowed to share with you. It is perfectly plausable that they could have had previous knowledge of this Subject, or perhaps he was doing more than just carrying the weapon a.k.a. waiving it around, or perhaps he used it in a crime.

Kraut · Oct 2, 2017

Reading the scenario described, I would believe that while completing the pat-down/Terry frisk, as well as locating the BB gun, there was something else within his pocket that was possibly another weapon (when there's one, always keep looking for the next one), and upon removing the contents of that pocket to assure that the subject was not in possession of a second weapon, the paraphernalia and drugs were found. An item such as a meth pipe could feel like a pocket knife when patting down the outer garments. Or, they may have just asked if he had any drugs/contraband and he 'fessed up, you'd be surprised how often habitual drug users do so.

Was this a legal or illegal search?

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