Jmfox3 has it exactly right as do most folks in this thread. To protect yourself, you should produce a bill of sale describing the firearm and include its serial number. Have a location for both parties to sign, and include their LADL. If the person purchasing the gun does not want to produce a drivers license for a bill of sale that is between the two parties, I would pass. You have no way of knowing if he can legally purchase a gun, and something is fishy. At least, if anything ever came back about the sale, you would have his DL number, name, and the dated bill of sale. That is all that is required. Welcome to the Free State of Louisiana.
Seeking help with my first private gun sale process
- Thread starter riroku
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My privacy advisers have recommended I only show my DL in situations where it is legally required. Their reasoning seems sound:
1. Identity theft is much easier if someone has all the info on your DL: full name, residential address, birthday, DL number, signature, etc. It's not just a matter of trusting the person not to abuse your information, but a matter of how secure they keep the info.
2. Sharing your residential address with people who know you are a gun owner is an invitation for crime against your home. Even if you trust the person, do you trust everyone in their home or place of business who might have access to their records. Even honest gun owners can have drug addicts in their homes who are not above B&Es to secure their next fix.
3. There are usually other ways to accomplish the same goal with reduced privacy intrusions. A voter registration card can establish residency with much less exposure to identity theft or crime against your home. A passport is the gold standard in government issued photo identification. The State Department is a lot more serious about crimes originating with a passport than the DMV is about crimes originating with a DL, and the passport has significantly less information on it.
After my share of credit card fraud, identity theft, internet scams, and other crime, I don't show any ID in many situations where it is requested: doctor visits (insurance card only), common purchases, etc. I show my passport card when boarding planes and making purchases that require a photo ID (but I do not allow it to be copied). I only use my DL in circumstances where it really is legally required (traffic stops, renting a car).
I hope folks are up front about what documentation they want to see before making someone go out of their way and then springing new requirements to complete a sale. Honest folks should also be up front regarding whether they merely want to view the documentation or whether they want to make a copy. Making a copy exposes the other party to privacy concerns relating to future possession and use of that copy that showing a single individual does not.
1. Identity theft is much easier if someone has all the info on your DL: full name, residential address, birthday, DL number, signature, etc. It's not just a matter of trusting the person not to abuse your information, but a matter of how secure they keep the info.
2. Sharing your residential address with people who know you are a gun owner is an invitation for crime against your home. Even if you trust the person, do you trust everyone in their home or place of business who might have access to their records. Even honest gun owners can have drug addicts in their homes who are not above B&Es to secure their next fix.
3. There are usually other ways to accomplish the same goal with reduced privacy intrusions. A voter registration card can establish residency with much less exposure to identity theft or crime against your home. A passport is the gold standard in government issued photo identification. The State Department is a lot more serious about crimes originating with a passport than the DMV is about crimes originating with a DL, and the passport has significantly less information on it.
After my share of credit card fraud, identity theft, internet scams, and other crime, I don't show any ID in many situations where it is requested: doctor visits (insurance card only), common purchases, etc. I show my passport card when boarding planes and making purchases that require a photo ID (but I do not allow it to be copied). I only use my DL in circumstances where it really is legally required (traffic stops, renting a car).
I hope folks are up front about what documentation they want to see before making someone go out of their way and then springing new requirements to complete a sale. Honest folks should also be up front regarding whether they merely want to view the documentation or whether they want to make a copy. Making a copy exposes the other party to privacy concerns relating to future possession and use of that copy that showing a single individual does not.
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Knock, knock on your front door:
REALLY LOUD KNOCK on your front door, followed by "POLICE"
You open door, Detectives introduce themselves. Asks if your name is ....., and if you own a Glock serial #1234567.
You: "Yes, and yes I had a glock, don't know the serial number, but sold it last week".
Cops: "Can we see your bill of sale?"
You: "Not required, I sold it for cash". ********If you had a Bill of Sale, this conversation basically stops here when you hand it to them.********
Cops: "Who to?"
You: "Don't know, never saw him before. He gave me cash, I gave him the Glock."
Cops: "What was his name, phone number and address?"
You: "Don't know. He gave me cash I gave him the gun."
Cops: "Are you sure you didn't you get a bill of sale?????"
You: Nope, not required.
Cops: "Can you describe the guy?"
You: "He was just an average guy, average height, weight, young like me."
Cops: "Oh really. Have you ever been to xyz convenience store? And, where were you Tuesday night at 930PM?"
You, thinking 'holy shi+, that was the time of that guy (in a ski mask) held up the convenience store and killed the clerk. And a customer. With a glock.... My Glock?'
You: "Here with my dog watching TV."
Cops: "Can you prove that?"
You: "Yea, ask my dog."
Cops: "Someone fitting your description was seen running from a crime scene. The gun was recovered and shows that it was sold to you 2 years ago." ..... "Do you mind if we look around in your home? .... Can we see your cell phone? Let's go downtown, you're under arrest."
If you have a Bill of Sale, you short circuit this potentially 'exciting event' and avoid a trip downtown.
REALLY LOUD KNOCK on your front door, followed by "POLICE"
You open door, Detectives introduce themselves. Asks if your name is ....., and if you own a Glock serial #1234567.
You: "Yes, and yes I had a glock, don't know the serial number, but sold it last week".
Cops: "Can we see your bill of sale?"
You: "Not required, I sold it for cash". ********If you had a Bill of Sale, this conversation basically stops here when you hand it to them.********
Cops: "Who to?"
You: "Don't know, never saw him before. He gave me cash, I gave him the Glock."
Cops: "What was his name, phone number and address?"
You: "Don't know. He gave me cash I gave him the gun."
Cops: "Are you sure you didn't you get a bill of sale?????"
You: Nope, not required.
Cops: "Can you describe the guy?"
You: "He was just an average guy, average height, weight, young like me."
Cops: "Oh really. Have you ever been to xyz convenience store? And, where were you Tuesday night at 930PM?"
You, thinking 'holy shi+, that was the time of that guy (in a ski mask) held up the convenience store and killed the clerk. And a customer. With a glock.... My Glock?'
You: "Here with my dog watching TV."
Cops: "Can you prove that?"
You: "Yea, ask my dog."
Cops: "Someone fitting your description was seen running from a crime scene. The gun was recovered and shows that it was sold to you 2 years ago." ..... "Do you mind if we look around in your home? .... Can we see your cell phone? Let's go downtown, you're under arrest."
If you have a Bill of Sale, you short circuit this potentially 'exciting event' and avoid a trip downtown.
I usually like to ask any prospective buyers or sellers cryptic style questions that would only be familiar to someone who has been "on the inside"... That way I know if they have done time.
Then I make vaguely creepy comments to see if they laugh, indicating they are some sort of sicko or have mental issues.
I also ask for a character reference for a childhood adult figure, like a 3rd grade teacher, or Uncle Rick...
Not sure if any of this is really needed, but it makes me feel better, and that is the most important part of a transaction like this.
I have not successfully sold anything using this method, just want to be clear on that point.
Then I make vaguely creepy comments to see if they laugh, indicating they are some sort of sicko or have mental issues.
I also ask for a character reference for a childhood adult figure, like a 3rd grade teacher, or Uncle Rick...
Not sure if any of this is really needed, but it makes me feel better, and that is the most important part of a transaction like this.
I have not successfully sold anything using this method, just want to be clear on that point.
No weapon, no motive, those cops are not the brightest so there's no way they were able to run down the serial number to you
Pale Horse
one quarter civilized
I'm not giving some random person a picture of my DL or even the number. The big three numbers needed to commit identity theft are DL#, date of birth, and social.
I don't care if you want that information. I have walked away from deals before because someone demanded my DL and I will probably do so again. I don't care if you think you need that info in case one day the police come knocking asking about that gun. If you are that scared of owning/selling guns go ahead and turn them all in to your local PD.
I'm not giving you my DL. If you don't like that, tough ****.
I don't care if you want that information. I have walked away from deals before because someone demanded my DL and I will probably do so again. I don't care if you think you need that info in case one day the police come knocking asking about that gun. If you are that scared of owning/selling guns go ahead and turn them all in to your local PD.
I'm not giving you my DL. If you don't like that, tough ****.
SouthernUnderGod
Well-Known Member
In this writer's opinion, the requirements of the State of LA are the minimum. Frankly, I'm uncomfortable selling OR buying in a situation where I don't know the other person. I'd rather take an extra step and let someone else handle the transaction, to keep things at arms length, even if it costs a few bucks. There are plenty of reputable dealers out there that will do a transfer for a minimal amount. I don't want to sell something to someone who ends up being a notorious crowd shooter or criminal and either get blamed for it or have something like that on my conscience. I also don't want to end up being a dupe for some liberal / anti-2A cause or video either. Unfortunately I have had firearms stolen from me. If I buy something from someone I want to be sure that it is not stolen or otherwise illegal. I don't want to end up in jail for selling something that ultimately is used in a crime. If someone thinks this overly cautious, so what.
Yes, what he has said, otherwise it’s nobody’s business. Good luck
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Mossbergman
RimfireRat
ATF~ RECORD of FIREARMS TRANSFER BETWEEN UNLICENSED PERSONS ~~ http://www.beararms.com/PDF/FTUP.pdf ~ but on handgun it's best for all involved to do the back ground ck at a shop for the transfer , just a CYA down the road ~~MM~~
Print out two copies of the bill of sale with the handgun manufacturer, model, and serial number. State on the bill of sale that you are selling the handgun to (Name of person). Date and sign along with the date and signature of the buyer. Follow the same process on the buyer's copy. Save your hard copy and it wouldn't hurt to scan it and save an electronic copy. The ATF paper trail ends with you as the owner if you purchased it from a dealer who had you fill out a 4473 form. If this weapon is stolen from the buyer and used in a crime and recovered, law enforcement will visit you. If you have a bill of sale to prove you sold the weapon, law enforcement will visit your buyer. You are cleared. If you don't have this bill of sale, get ready to hire a good lawyer. In Louisiana, this bill of sale does not need to be notarized.
Thank you for all the replies! I really didn't expect this thread to be this active. I have decided to use a BOS template I found online. However, there seems to be mixed messages on whether not to ask for the Driver license number or not. As stated, I don't know the person personally but they're a friend of a family member who does have a Louisiana drivers license and clean record. I was planning on writing up two BOS and only having each other name and DL number and signature with all the information of the gun. Nothing else regarding address or what not
So here's how you do it. You verify the person's name by looking at their driver's license. Don't put the DL on the BOS. Instead, bring an inkpad and both of you put a thumbprint on each BOS. At that point, if something goes really wrong and the cops knock on your door, you have a name they can type in their fancy little computers and you have a thumbprint they can match to the results of their name search to make sure they have the correct buyer.
^ This. We have private sales so you can (hopefully) buy a firearm you want at a cheaper price, at any time, anywhere, without jumping through the hoops of buying from an FFL. Not that it takes very long to buy a firearm here anyway, but privacy takes on an entirely different meaning when you are dealing with an individual. The most I do when buying from a private seller is call in the serial number to make sure the firearm hasn't been reported stolen, which only takes a few minutes. Once I get the green light I just hand over cash, shake hands etc, then we both go our separate ways.
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That is what you normally do.But apparently we have many democrats on this board,
that believe by doing a bos and all the other stuff alleviates you from issues.
Nothing to show means nothing to investigate,get a warrant...
Apparently democrats never go to court on anything to do with laws....
Interesting idea, but I wouldn't let someone have my thumbprint. I'd prefer them to have my DL #.
Who do you call to check the serial number?
Wanting a BOS doesn't make anyone anything other than intelligent and prepared. Play nice.
I call the closest sheriff's office sub-station and give it to them along with the make/model.
Old Account
Active Member
Kinda feels like a social experiment; in other words, a fishing expedition. So, I'll give you both points of views, to the best of my ability.
Technically, you don't have to do a damn thing, in Louisiana, except exchange money for the firearm. Although there is a scary new law on the books regarding selling firearms to prohibited persons, the key word is "knowingly". So, unless you know the buyer is a felon and you don't feel like being responsible...hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Worst case scenario, your new buyer uses it in the commission of a crime. They hunt it down to the dealer you bought it from, and then question you on your whereabouts and the transaction. You get lectured on the transaction method, and briefed on how to be a responsible citizen and firearm owner. You may or may not be told how many times that firearm has changed hands since you sold it to Joe Blow.... OR .... you can just collect a bill of sale and as much information about the buyer as possible, within reason. Your bill of sale can include things like serial number, a disclosure about the person not being prohibited, mentally defective, dishonorably discharged, felon, LEGAL CITIZEN, etc. You can print one of these BS forms from the internet. The buyer can still lie, or turn around and sell the firearm without detailed paperwork. And, if it's used in the commission of a crime, you're still going to get a knock on the door by investigators, local or federal. There is no firearm database that clears your name, other than the ones that are trying to be started by local departments (storing ammunition logs, etc). That's a totally separate issue. From my understanding, purchasing a firearm from a dealer is like parenting a baby. It comes with great responsibility.
Hope this helps with the question/social, legal experiment.
Bill of Sale should not contain any PERSONAL information other than the names of the buyer and seller . PERIOD . I don't want a copy of your DL and you aren't getting mine . Flash me your CHP or your DL and I'll call it good . This doesn't have to be so complicated .
And if you don't want to do a BOS , I'll at least get your full name so I can record it in my " bound book " that I keep .
And if you don't want to do a BOS , I'll at least get your full name so I can record it in my " bound book " that I keep .
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