Tammany Trace carry

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    nolaradio

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    I see that St. Tammany Parish is promoting the fact that they have updated their code of ordinance and made it easier to read/search. Here's the official release from the parish's website:

    St. Tammany Parish Code of Ordinances now Live and Online

    Pat Brister, St. Tammany Parish President, and Steve Stefancik, 2017 St. Tammany Parish Council Chairman, announced today that a new Code of Ordinances, formulated in 2017 through a partnership with the Municipal Code Corporation, is now live here. Changes to the code include: a modernized digital version with increased functionality that will be updated on a monthly basis; revised language that, where appropriate, replaces language referring to a Police Jury form of government, and a more user-friendly version with search capabilities. This initiative was undertaken in order to provide transparent and user-friendly access to the laws and codes of St. Tammany Parish Government, including the Charter, Code of Ordinances and appendixes. The ordinance was formally adopted at the December 7, 2017 Parish Council Meeting.

    “This newly formatted code is something our residents have wanted, and we are happy to offer them this updated convenience — a modernized, digital version of the Code of Ordinances to save time, and provide clarity when questions arise,” said, Pat Brister, St. Tammany Parish President. “We work with the Council every day in bringing Parish Government services into line with the current technological demands, and we take pride in offering services such as these to our residents.”

    “We revisited the Code of Ordinances and worked very hard to make it easier to read, understand and navigate,” said Steve Stefancik, 2017 St. Tammany Parish Council Chairman. “We appreciate the input of our constituents and the hard work of everyone involved to make this happen.”

    The St. Tammany Parish Code of Ordinances can be found on the Parish’s website at www.stpgov.org/government/parish-council.



    So I decided to check out if they changed anything regarding carrying on the Tammany Trace. And yes, they did. Pertinent information is in bold below.


    Sec. 30-371. - Rules and regulations.
    The following are the approved rules and regulations established in connection with Tammany Trace:

    (1) General rules.

    a. Hours of operation are daily from 7:00 a.m. to dark.
    b. Please stay on the appropriately marked trails. Pedestrians should stay on the west shoulder or to the right along each side of the trail. Slower traffic should stay to the right in each direction. Passing traffic should notify slower traffic that they are passing either by voice, horn or bell.
    c. Obey all federal, state and local traffic laws. Laws will be strictly enforced in accordance with fines associated with violations. d. Park only in designated areas. Unauthorized parking is subject to being towed and/or ticketed.
    e. No trespassing on private property.

    (2) Prohibited. The following is prohibited on Tammany Trace or its facilities:

    a. Camping.
    b. Fires.
    c. Carrying or discharging of firearms or fireworks.
    d. Use of glass containers.
    e. Hunting.
    f. Littering.
    g. Pets on main trail.
    h. Racing.
    i. Unauthorized solicitation.
    j. Swimming, wading or diving.
    k. Unauthorized structures.
    l. Alcoholic beverages are prohibited on the Tammany Trace and/or its facilities except during special events. A special event organizer/sponsor must obtain a temporary alcohol permit and conform to section 6-30(d) and state law in accordance with L.A.C. title 55, part 7, section 323 and any other applicable state law.
    m. Only authorized motorized vehicles are allowed on Tammany Trace.
    n. Do not disturb plant vegetation. Tammany Trace traverses an environmentally sensitive area of the parish.
    o. Handling of wildlife found on Tammany Trace is prohibited. Please contact Tammany Trace Ranger or appropriate parish authorities if there is a problem.

    (3) Specific trail rules.

    a. Horses stay in assigned areas.
    b. A Coggins test is required for horses using Tammany Trace.
    c. Do not exceed 15 miles per hour speed limit.
    d. Horses must be kept at a walk in the area designated for horses on the main trail.
    e. Helmets, knee pads, elbow and wrist guards are required for rollerbladers.
    f. Helmets are required for off-road biking (when such area has been constructed).
    g. Obey all traffic signs along the trail.
    h. Stay in designated areas only. Stay out of drainage ditches and other such structures not constructed for recreational purposes.
    i. When you see hazard signs and reflective markings on the main trail, these signs denote possible danger areas. Move as close to the center of the trail as traffic will allow.

    (4) Bridge etiquette. Rollerbladers yield to cyclists; cyclists yield to joggers; joggers yield to walkers; walkers yield to horses. Helmets for cyclists and horsemen are strongly recommended and encouraged. Ride at your own risk if no helmet is worn. The parish is not responsible for injuries resulting from lack of proper equipment, improperly maintained equipment, improperly used equipment or improper or unsafe use of Tammany Trace facilities.

    (5) Construction.

    a. Absolutely no one shall use areas designated either as "Under Construction" or signed as "No Trespassing." These areas are unsafe and are not open to the general public. Further, only authorized personnel are allowed to enter these areas.
    b. Tammany Trace is ADA accessible, and the parish encourages use of the trail by all, regardless of race, creed, sex, ethnic origin or physical impairment. c. Commissioned Tammany Trace Rangers are empowered to patrol the trace, and write and issue citations to offenders.

    (Code 1998, § 16-131.02; Ord. No. 94-2024, 7-21-1994; Ord. No. 14-3257, 12-4-2014; Ord. No. 15-3403, § 16-131.02, 10-1-2015)

    State Law reference— Authority of parish as property owner to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under state law, R.S. 40:1379.3.


    So it seems as though the parish is getting around the state preemption by claiming that they are a property owner and are within their rights as one, to restrict the carrying of concealed firearms on their property. At least that's how I interpret it.

    Concealed means concealed.
     

    nolaradio

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    It's interesting that they prohibit the carrying of firearms along the trace and at Camp Salmen but not on the fishing pier in Slidell.
     

    thperez1972

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    It's interesting that they prohibit the carrying of firearms along the trace and at Camp Salmen but not on the fishing pier in Slidell.

    It's also curious that they lump fireworks and firearms together as if everyone sees them as something to set off for personal enjoyment. I'd bet a number of people do a google search for Tammany Trace to get info on the rules. Municode.com isn't in a lot of people's browser bookmarks. The rules page on the Tammany Trace site doesn't list the prohibition of either firearms or fireworks.

    But on the bright side. You won't need a firearm to protect yourself from criminals. The prohibition means they can't have one either.

    http://www.tammanytrace.org/index.php/about-the-trace/rules
     

    STPHomie

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    No ordinance in St Tammany has been challenged in court and held to strict scrutiny, right?

    Have any ordinances in the whole state been tested in court under strict scrutiny since the constitutional amendment?
     

    thperez1972

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    No ordinance in St Tammany has been challenged in court and held to strict scrutiny, right?

    Have any ordinances in the whole state been tested in court under strict scrutiny since the constitutional amendment?

    I believe some prohibited persons (convicted felons) have challenged their status since the amendment and the courts have upheld their prohibited status.

    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2014/07/louisiana_supreme_court_uphold_4.html
     

    STPHomie

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    I believe some prohibited persons (convicted felons) have challenged their status since the amendment and the courts have upheld their prohibited status.

    I'd love to see a brave open carrier do it too. I think it would have to be someone who does not have a concealed permit, just to be on the safe side.
     

    thperez1972

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    I'd love to see a brave open carrier do it too. I think it would have to be someone who does not have a concealed permit, just to be on the safe side.

    Therein lies the problem with "illegal" laws. Until someone with time and/or money and/or plain old bad luck enters the picture, the law "works" the way it was intended to work. And even with bad luck, the state may accept a plea or drop the charges all-together to keep the case from going too far.
     

    cajun_64

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    Now you see where all the former New Orleans residents are living. They are trying to change St. Tammany into New Orleans.
    JMHO, YMMV
     

    leadslinger972

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    Sadly, the parish can't claim property as their own personal property and prohibit you from carrying a firearm. The people of St Tammany can continue to roller blade all their little rainbow hearts desire whilst carrying their Taurus revolvers.
     

    paddle007

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    Leave it to Pat Brister. Remember when the mayor of Mandeville stopped on a crossover of the causeway to "relieve" himself. He got a ticket from St. Tammany parish. As things played out it was determined St. Tammany had no law preventing him from peeing on the bridge in St. Tammany parish. Pat Brister was quick on the draw to made it illegal. Good golly, without her help how could I rest comfortably.
     

    Nathan Hale

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    No law exist in a vacuum; R.S.40:1379.3(O.) must be read in conjunction with R.S.40:1796(A.) (As well as Article 1 sec. 11 of the state constitution.)
    St. Tammany Parish, apparently, takes the position that the only law applicable to them on this issue is R.S.40:1379.3. To my thinking it is not.
    It is true that an "owner" may prohibit a concealed handgun carrier to come upon their property, R.S.40:1379.3(O); however, there is one classification of "owner" whose right to do that is limited: political subdivisions, R.S.40:1796(A.). Owners who are political subdivisions may only restrict to a degree greater than state law in "...public buildings." Beyond that, they have no authority.
    If Abita Springs takes the same tack that St. Tammany Parish has taken, I cannot imagine this not ending up in court.

    Think about it this way: if St. Tammany Parish is correct in its legal reasoning then the state's CHP law means nothing. The legislature did not want local governments to have the authority to vitiate state law, thus the preemption statute.


    UPDATE: I am not sure what is going on with this St. Tammany Parish (STP) ordinance. About 3 or 4 years ago STP wanted to prohibit firearms on "...all parish property...". After much debate, they dialed the proposed ordinance back and passed an ordinance which only addressed firearms in public buildings, which is what state preemption requires. This "Tammany Trace" prohibition is new (and I suspect illegal.)
     
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    MOTOR51

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    No law exist in a vacuum; R.S.40:1379.3(O.) must be read in conjunction with R.S.40:1796(A.) (As well as Article 1 sec. 11 of the state constitution.)
    St. Tammany Parish, apparently, takes the position that the only law applicable to them on this issue is R.S.40:1379.3. To my thinking it is not.
    It is true that an "owner" may prohibit a concealed handgun carrier to come upon their property, R.S.40:1379.3(O); however, there is one classification of "owner" whose right to do that is limited: political subdivisions, R.S.40:1796(A.). Owners who are political subdivisions may only restrict to a degree greater than state law in "...public buildings." Beyond that, they have no authority.
    If Abita Springs takes the same tack that St. Tammany Parish has taken, I cannot imagine this not ending up in court.

    Think about it this way: if St. Tammany Parish is correct in its legal reasoning then the state's CHP law means nothing. The legislature did not want local governments to have the authority to vitiate state law, thus the preemption statute.

    Are you a lawyer?


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    thperez1972

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    Are you a lawyer?


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    Unless you're implying only lawyers can have knowledge about the law, that question is irrelevant. Do you have an issue with the information he presented? Or are you trying to say his information is bad simply because the person presenting it is not a lawyer?
     

    MOTOR51

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    Unless you're implying only lawyers can have knowledge about the law, that question is irrelevant. Do you have an issue with the information he presented? Or are you trying to say his information is bad simply because the person presenting it is not a lawyer?

    First of all the question was not directed at you. I am curious if he is a lawyer because he post a lot about interpretations of the law. I am also curious as to why you feel you can dictate to me what is relevant and irrelevant. I would suggest you stay in your lane.


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    UnseenUSPCompact

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    You have to be a lawyer to claim you know the law, but you don't have to be a lawyer to claim somebody else doesn't know the law...its internet rule #34674
     

    thperez1972

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    First of all the question was not directed at you. I am curious if he is a lawyer because he post a lot about interpretations of the law. I am also curious as to why you feel you can dictate to me what is relevant and irrelevant. I would suggest you stay in your lane.


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    You asked the question in a public forum so I it is everybody's lane. If it was meant to be a private question, you have the option of asking it in private. And based on your reply, my speculation was spot on. If his interpretation of the law is correct, his being a lawyer or not is irrelevant. If he is a lawyer, his interpretation could be wrong. Not all lawyers are right all of the time. Not all non-lawyers are wrong all of the time.

    And when I refer to relevant and irrelevant, I speak in the context of the topic of discussion. That information may be relevant or irrelevant to you personally.
     
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