I’m curious to hear some opinions on self defense handgun calibers.

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  • leadslinger972

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    Well said.

    Not having a gun = loss.
    Not having a holster / carry system that allows you to access your gun in an effective manner = loss
    Not training with your gun where you cannot get shots on target = loss

    If you've won the three battles above and are able to get shots on target, you are MILES ahead someone who failed one of the first three steps. Caliber at that point isn't going to make a huge difference.

    Personally, I am partial to 9mm because it has adequate "umph" behind it, while allowing me to comfortably carry 18 rounds in the gun, and an additonal 17 in a spare mag.

    Another big component people ignore is carrying a light to see potential targets at night. I think people should pay a lot more attention to what light, holster, and belt they use than the bullets in their gun.

    Or 23 in a spare mag ;)
     

    SouthernUnderGod

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    Best Calibers? Best for you might not be best for me.

    I've seen a lot of programs on this subject and read many articles on it as well. I'm not an expert but the one thing that really influenced me was a documentary about the FBI's most recent evaluation. You may be aware that the FBI went from a revolver culture (that ended when some agents were killed and severely wounded in an out-gunned confrontation) to a flirt with larger auto rounds (.40S&W / 10mm). The condensed version of the latest FBI decision is that they settled on 9mm (for EDC for the typical field agent; does not apply to all situations such as HRT, special tactical, etc.)

    However, it must be pointed out that the FBI made the choice based on certain criteria that might not apply to your needs. The FBI wants a certain penetration depth through layers of material without over-penetration. The FBI chose the 9mm but they also chose a very specific ammunition configuration as well. As best I can determine, the equivalent consumer available round would be something like a Hornady XTP bullet in a +P propellant configuration. The FBI committee's choice wanted to come up with something that would have the required stopping power that could be shot reasonably well across their vary diverse force of agents. This means giving consideration to the fact that some of the agents will be physically smaller. They decided that the 9mm/XTP/+P (my characterization for explanatory purposes, not theirs) yielded the best choice to equip the force to achieve the optimum results in terms of marksmanship, stopping power, safety, upkeep and dependability.

    I noted that this was contrasted with the needs of the Secret Service, whose (not often voiced) objective is to terminate the threat, not apprehend a criminal. The FBI acknowledged that there are benefits to some of the more powerful calibers but that their evaluation concluded that agent marksmanship (accuracy, confidence, etc.) was poorer with larger loads.

    For the self-defense shooter (like me) I think that the best caliber has to be determined individually by actual evaluation and personal decision. For me, it's largely a question of "What is the most lethal load that I can shoot reasonably well?" As of right now, it's 9mm/XTP/+P in a high-capacity mid-size auto for EDC. However, when something goes "bump" in the middle of the night I usually grab a 1911. I think that's very telling. I think that we are going to be discussing this and even arguing about it for years to come. Thank the Lord we don't live in Europe of South America where the biggest thing you can own is .380!

    By the way, I think the biggest factor is the shooter, not the firearm. I recently heard an industry guy say that the quality of the firearms and ammunition today (assuming you're not buying the junk) is better than the ability of the shooter. On the Gun Stories episode about the Winchester 1894 an instructor recounted a story about a "carbines course" he conducted. All but one of the participants had AR-platform rifles, well tricked-out. The one that didn't was a retired deputy sheriff from the southwest who had an iron-sights-only Winchester 94 in .30-30. He shot the pants off all the black rifle guys using the rifle he carried in the trunk of his cruiser for 30 years.
     

    jkingrph

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    It all depends upon where I am carrying, and how I am dressed. Most of the time I am business casual so I am carrying a Sig P239 in 9mm, the gun is marginally larger than the same type, the P238 in 380, so for barely 1/2" extra length I get much more power. I was using a S&W 348 I think, a double action, 5 shot j frame .38 special, and it was a tad too large and my wife kept seeing it. I did my research and got the little Sig which I carry, round chambered contition 1, ie cocked and locked, in a pocket holster that has a small flap over the butt so if it shows it looks like a large wallet. I have been carrying like that for over a year and no one has notice it, and it is light enough not to pull my pants down. Since I started with semi auto types about 30 years ago, a Browning Hi power, then on to some Colt 1911 types, I prefer that type action. I have a couple of double actions and simply do not care for them, mostly because of the long, hard trigger pull.

    Back to defensive calibers, my recommendation is to go with what you can control and hit with. A .22LR in the hands of a expert or really good shot is nothing to laugh at. With some of the drug crazed individuals out there I prefer more power. All the ammo has really improved over the last few years,

    Last summer I bought some ammo from a company called Liberty the ammo called civil defense. I am thinking stop an assault, not necessarily to kill. THis stuff is all lightweight bullets, and very high velocity, as follows for my various handguns.

    .380 50 gr at 1500 fps
    38 spl 50 gr at 1500 fps
    9mm 50 gr at 2000 fps
    357mag 50 gr at 2100 fps
    10mm 60 gr at 2400fps
    45acp 70 gr at 1900fps

    I cannot remember penetrations, but with a huge hollowpoint it will probably not be a lot, but would make a big nasty wound

    some other brands tout heavier bullets and a lot of penetration

    You probably need to think it over and determine if you what lethality or stopping power.
     

    pptpe45

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    Old prejudices are hard to overcome

    Over the years I know the debate has raged on about an ideal handgun caliber for self defense. I realize that it is different for everyone. I personally prefer a 9mm. I have better control and prefer the extra couple of rounds in the magazine. I’m just curious to hear from some of you about your preferred caliber and why.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I have not liked the 9mm ever since the Miami shootout in 1986 (or was it '87). 2 FBI agents killed and several others seriously wounded. One of the bad guys had 12 (or 15 depending on who you listened to) 9mm holes in him and was still shooting agents. One round nicked an artery. He was dying, but not fast enough. None of the rounds put a stop to his activity. The rounds used were 115 grain FMJ. Fast forward 30 years. Science and metallurgy have combined to produce 9mm ammo that hits as hard as larger calibers and has the 'one-shot-stop' capability of larger calibers. Knowing this and understanding this, I still cannot bring myself to carry a 9mm for self defense. I own several (loaded with 124 grain +P ammo) but they are relegated to backup duty. My carry is .45 or .40. Today a 9mm with the correct ammo is a great self defense round and a good carry gun, but some prejudices just won't go away.
     

    leadslinger972

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    I have not liked the 9mm ever since the Miami shootout in 1986 (or was it '87). 2 FBI agents killed and several others seriously wounded. One of the bad guys had 12 (or 15 depending on who you listened to) 9mm holes in him and was still shooting agents. One round nicked an artery. He was dying, but not fast enough. None of the rounds put a stop to his activity. The rounds used were 115 grain FMJ. Fast forward 30 years. Science and metallurgy have combined to produce 9mm ammo that hits as hard as larger calibers and has the 'one-shot-stop' capability of larger calibers. Knowing this and understanding this, I still cannot bring myself to carry a 9mm for self defense. I own several (loaded with 124 grain +P ammo) but they are relegated to backup duty. My carry is .45 or .40. Today a 9mm with the correct ammo is a great self defense round and a good carry gun, but some prejudices just won't go away.

    I'll take higher capacity and faster follow up shots. 9mm is much better than what it used to be, and it only matters if you hit what you're aiming at.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    Correct, a rapid 3-4 shot 9mm 124+p to a 3-6" upper chest is better than a rapid 3 shot 230gr +p 45 to the stomach chest and upper shoulder... But don't get me wrong I carry 45 also, just like every other life senerio, use and carry what you are comfortable and good with!!!
    I'll take higher capacity and faster follow up shots. 9mm is much better than what it used to be, and it only matters if you hit what you're aiming at.
     

    Core

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    9mm. Why? Because there is no empirical evidence that .40 S&W or .45 ACP outperform 9mm.

    Shot placement is more important, so I prefer to have less recoil and more capacity.




    There is empirical evidence that 45 Auto outperforms 9mm. DOJ murder data suggests larger diameter projectiles in conventional pistol calibers are more "lethal." Also the 45 Auto has a great deal more kinetic energy potential than 9mm. The difference between lethality is minimal as you compare 9mm to 45 Auto but discernable by data and energy laws.

    The difference between .22 lethality and 45 Auto pistol cartridges is more pronounced. Also, we see magnum calibers like .357 and 44 Mag show significant increase in lethality per shot lethality.

    From this doctors, perspective 9mm/40/45 are not visually discernable because he cannot observe the statistical deviation.

    Expanded_Homicide_Data_Table_8.jpg
     

    Core

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    45 Auto: because it has more kinetic energy, and it's more lethal. I would carry a magnum if I could shoot it worth a damn under stress. Pay special attention to % of 1 stop shots:
    Expanded_Homicide_Data_Table_8.jpg
     
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    AustinBR

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    45 Auto: because it has more kinetic energy, and it's more lethal. I would carry a magnum if I could shoot it worth a damn under stress. Pay special attention to % of 1 stop shots:
    Expanded_Homicide_Data_Table_8.jpg

    I think if that chart shows anything, it's that you should use .22 LR as it has high percentages on everything...and you can fit a metric ton of those little suckers in one magazine. But really, there are no actual studies, charts, or anything that can scientifically show that .45 is better than 9mm.
     

    dougstump

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    But really, there are no actual studies, charts, or anything that can scientifically show that .45 is better than 9mm.

    Well, the .45 ACP is newer than the 9mm!:run:
     

    oleheat

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    This much I know: If you do happen to be carrying a .45 ACP and a bad situation does fall upon you, the modern 9mm Luger round in ANY configuration is not better than the .45 ACP to the point you should ask your attacker if he minds you running home and switching over to your 9mm. :)
     

    leadslinger972

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    This much I know: If you do happen to be carrying a .45 ACP and a bad situation does fall upon you, the modern 9mm Luger round in ANY configuration is not better than the .45 ACP to the point you should ask your attacker if he minds you running home and switching over to your 9mm. :)

    If you're carrying a .45, you've already accepted that you will have more felt recoil and a lower capacity.

    If and when you need it, you better hope that your training (or lack thereof) isn't going to get you killed.
     

    oleheat

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    If you're carrying a .45, you've already accepted that you will have more felt recoil and a lower capacity.

    If and when you need it, you better hope that your training (or lack thereof) isn't going to get you killed.


    You're giving me the impression you don't care for the .45 ACP.
     

    oleheat

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    I do, but I also recognize that it is an inferior defensive round for more reasons than ballistics.

    I do agree that 9mm bullet technology has come a long way, and that more people on average find it easier to shoot for a variety of reasons. But I also believe that the improved bullet technology covers the other popular self-defense calibers, as well- so most modern HP projectiles are improved from years gone by. But I do get what you are saying. :cheers:

    (I myself carry a Glock 19, FWIW.:) Just adding to the conversation.)
     
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