Scenario- Illegal church carry, church shooting occurs and good guy wins... Prison?

aceinyerface · Jan 31, 2018

In trying to get people to do church carry properly, I hear a lot of people are illegally carrying in church. I want to make them see that the consequences are too terrible to continue in their unlawful ways.

War gaming that out in 2 scenarios... what happens?

1) If they get caught carrying illegally and no incident is involved, I hear that is a misdemeanor to the tune of $200. Do they lose their CHP? What other consequences?

2) If they are carrying illegally and a church shooting occurs, they fatally stop the bad guy, now what? Do they lose the right to claim self defense? Would they be relying on the good nature of the DA to not prosecute them? I think this would at a minimum open them up to civil litigation.

What is the worst that can happen and what is most likely to happen.

I think this has not been adjudicated in LA, but if anyone has a case, let me know.

docbenb415 · Jan 31, 2018

Any legal action to the concealed carrier my be only if the owner of the church property wanted to pursue action against that person. Taking any kind of offensive action in a church may prove tricky. There are a lot people. Generally hard to manuver and many rooms with people you may not be able to see. That being said. I'm certainly not saying not to carry in church.

stratowalt · Jan 31, 2018

I wouldn't be surprised if they lost their CHP for illegally carrying. It's not too difficult to do it legally so long as the church leadership is not opposed.

nolaradio · Jan 31, 2018

There's always open carry. Unless you're asked to leave the premesis I can't see any law being broken.

Sent from the Bayou Bunker Command Center, Portable Unit #33, FEMA Region 6.

Tboy · Jan 31, 2018

I think you've listed two best case scenarios. Worst thing I can imagine happening is they carry without training or permission AND make a bad shoot. They hit someone that wasn't posing a threat. They've shown no interest in making themselves legal in a place of worship. That would probably be brought up in court.

Not a lawyer (disclaimer) but I think involentary manslaughter would best case for them in that situation. Leo and lawyers feel free to correct me.

The short of it is, if your church hasn't started a carry program for your particular church, step up and see if the leaders will be open to it. If the are on board with it, it's not hard to get it going with a few like minded folks.

JBP55 · Jan 31, 2018

Consult an Attorney! Too many wrong answers to legal questions on firearms forums from Jail House Attorneys.

Bigchillin83 · Jan 31, 2018

I will neither confirm or deny carry in church... But I will say this as stated in many other posts, concealed is concealed!!!! If you do your part nobody will notice... With time comes confidence, technique, awareness and also complacent!!!! There's a fine line to walk. Keep in mind if a civilian/preacher/usher ask you if you are carrying you do not have to answer them or submit to a search, most could happen is they will ask you to leave if you don't want them to search you... Now if you are clearly seen with a gun and law enforcement is called, then as others state idk, get a lawyer lol

Also if I was to be carrying in a church and a situation was to happen, my #1 priority and only would be to keep my gun concealed and get my wife and kids out of there without ever using it unless I am placed in a situation to be forced to use it to exit the building... Leave the "hostage situation" up to the professionals!!! You in civilian clothes running around with a gun in church will not look like a good guy to the arriving officers

leadslinger972 · Jan 31, 2018

JBP55 said:
Consult an Attorney! Too many wrong answers to legal questions on firearms forums from Jail House Attorneys.

This is the only correct answer in this thread.

Bigchillin83 · Jan 31, 2018

Thanks Austin... I tend to get in a hurry and with this stupid smart phone somtimes changes my words, but I'm not denying I can't spell or use proper sentence structure lol

AustinBR · Jan 31, 2018

leadslinger972 said:
This is the only correct answer in this thread.

Yup. Another easy solution is to not go to church. That solves a lot of the problems, lol.

Bigchillin83 said:
Thanks Austin... I tend to get in a hurry and with this stupid smart phone somtimes changes my words, but I'm not denying I can't spell or use proper sentence structure lol

No worries, just was feeling helpful :]

leadslinger972 · Jan 31, 2018

AustinBR said:
Yup. Another easy solution is to not go to church. That solves a lot of the problems, lol.

Funny how many people will purposely break the law to go to Church, but won't carry a quality flashlight or WML.

340six · Jan 31, 2018

I got as far as the title when it was posted Illegal church carry
The best response was as a lawyer.
As far as I know, asking someone in charge at the Chruch is the way to go.
Is it not a privately owned place?

aceinyerface · Jan 31, 2018

Yes, everyone knows that you need to talk to a lawyer, that is not the question.

This is speculative, if you do not wish to speculate, fine. But, don't shut down the conversation.

leadslinger972 · Jan 31, 2018

aceinyerface said:
Yes, everyone knows that you need to talk to a lawyer, that is not the question.

This is speculative, if you do not wish to speculate, fine. But, don't shut down the conversation.

I speculate you would end up in a civil suit and lose a metric butt ton of cash.

/thread

JBP55 · Jan 31, 2018

340six said:
I got as far as the title when it was posted Illegal church carry
The best response was as a lawyer.
As far as I know, asking someone in charge at the Chruch is the way to go.
Is it not a privately owned place?

U.(1) The entity which owns the business or has authority over the administration of a church, synagogue, or mosque shall have the authority to authorize any person issued a valid concealed handgun permit as authorized by the provisions of this Section to carry a concealed handgun in the church, synagogue, or mosque.
(2) The provisions of this Subsection shall not be construed to limit or prohibit any church, synagogue, or mosque from employing armed security guards who are either certified law enforcement officers or who are authorized to carry concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Section.
(3) If the church, synagogue, or mosque authorizes the carrying of concealed handguns as authorized by the provisions of this Subsection, the pastor, priest, minister, or other authority of the church, synagogue, or mosque shall inform the congregation of the authorization.
(4) The provisions of this Section shall not be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed handgun in a church, synagogue, or mosque located on the property of any school or school property, which would otherwise be prohibited by the provisions of R.S. 14:95.2.
(5) Any church, synagogue, or mosque authorizing the carrying of concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Subsection shall require an additional eight hour tactical training for those persons wishing to carry concealed handguns in the church, synagogue, or mosque. The training shall be conducted annually.

m1k3 · Jan 31, 2018

One aspect of church carry that I have thought about: U(4) as posted by JBP55 above states that the section does not authorize concealed carry if the church, synagogue, or mosque is located on the property of a school. What about if the school is located on church property? Many of the Catholic churches in the area have a school on the property, but the property is owned by the church. Or do you have to have written permission from the Principal of the school as well?

CAJUNLAWYER · Jan 31, 2018

"What is the worst that can happen and what is most likely to happen."
The worst that can happen is that you are convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
What is most likely to happen......assuming a righteous shoot........nothing.
I'm a lawyer working within the criminal justice system for over 30 years. I answer questions like this every day.
Oh and BTW the worst usually doesn't happen either

JB-Glock21 · Feb 1, 2018

JBP55 said:
Consult an Attorney! Too many wrong answers to legal questions on firearms forums from Jail House Attorneys.

AMEN!!

whitsend · Feb 1, 2018

Depends on what you mean by "Illegal church carry".

Are you talking about not getting permission from the pastor?

Or never getting the additional training?

Or got the training, but it's not within the last 12 months?

I think (IANAL) the answer to your quiestion would depend on the answer to these.

JMHO

aceinyerface · Feb 1, 2018

whitsend said:
Depends on what you mean by "Illegal church carry".

Are you talking about not getting permission from the pastor?

Or never getting the additional training?

Or got the training, but it's not within the last 12 months?

I think (IANAL) the answer to your quiestion would depend on the answer to these.

JMHO

All of your examples are illegal carry.

According to Andrew Branca, once you pierce the veil of innocence, you may lose the right to claim self defense.

I don't get a sense that the echo chamber wants to get out of their comfort zone and have a real discussion, even if only speculative.

You can go back to your 9mm vs 45 discussions.

Sorry for bothering you.

Scenario- Illegal church carry, church shooting occurs and good guy wins... Prison?

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