Leupold MIL or MOA / FFP or SFP and Why?

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  • Gringo Loco

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    I have been looking into different optic companies and have decided to buy a couple Leupold scopes. I have the magnification etc. down that I want. BUT, my biggest hesitations are: 1) MIL or MOA 2) First Focal Plane or Second Focal Plane. Why do I want one over the other? Will it make much difference. I read a lot, hear many opinion and watched videos and tutorials. I want to know what the BS community thinks.

    So... What do you think? And, why?

    Info:

    Rifle: Remington 700 5R 308 24" threaded barrel
    Distance of possible shots: 100yds to 600yds
    Base/Rings: Have not decided yet
     

    rabiddawg

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    I think most folks are going mil but for some reason my brain translates better with moa. It’s really just personal preference. Make sure your reticle matches the turrets so you don’t have another math problem to work out.

    As for ffp or sfp, I like ffp for target shooting but Not for hunting. The reticle gets hard to see in low light conditions. Illuminated reticle helps that but then can be too bright if you need to zoom in.
     

    LAram567

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    What’s the scope gonna be used for? That’ll help decide if you FFP or SFP. For most Americans MOA seems to be a little bit more intuitive since we can relate it closely to inches, but they both work off a circle. It’s basically degrees vs. radians as far as that goes. I believe most Mil scopes have larger adjustment increments than MOA scopes.


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    Gringo Loco

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    I think most folks are going mil but for some reason my brain translates better with moa. It’s really just personal preference. Make sure your reticle matches the turrets so you don’t have another math problem to work out.

    As for ffp or sfp, I like ffp for target shooting but Not for hunting. The reticle gets hard to see in low light conditions. Illuminated reticle helps that but then can be too bright if you need to zoom in.

    I don't really understand what that means. I didn't know it wouldn't match. Can you elaborate?


    What’s the scope gonna be used for? That’ll help decide if you FFP or SFP. For most Americans MOA seems to be a little bit more intuitive since we can relate it closely to inches, but they both work off a circle. It’s basically degrees vs. radians as far as that goes. I believe most Mil scopes have larger adjustment increments than MOA scopes.

    I want to use it for precision shooting and hunting. Anywhere from 100 yds to 600yds.
     

    rabiddawg

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    Some scopes, Leupold in particular, have a mil dot reticle and turrets that are moa. If you use the mil dots in the the scope to range your target you have to convert that to moa or your point of aim will be off.

    It only becomes an issue if you use the reticle to range the target.
     

    Gringo Loco

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    Some scopes, Leupold in particular, have a mil dot reticle and turrets that are moa. If you use the mil dots in the the scope to range your target you have to convert that to moa or your point of aim will be off.

    It only becomes an issue if you use the reticle to range the target.

    So getting a MOA reticle with MOA turrets is good then?
     

    rabiddawg

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    One MOA, 1⁄60 of that, measures 1.047 inches. While 1 MOA at 100 yards equals 1.047 inches, at 200 yards it equals 2.094 inches (2 x 1.047). To calculate MOA at any distance, multiply 1.047 by the distance in yards and divide by 100. On riflescopes with 1⁄4-MOA adjustments, each click equals .261 inch at 100 yards.



    Calculating 0.1 Mil Increments for Target Knobs
    To calculate elevation and windage settings using mils, you’ll first have to learn what one mil equals at various distances – for instance, since one mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards and it’s an angular measurement, it gradually expands to 36 inches at 1000 yards. As a minimum you’ll need to know exactly what that one mil angular width is at hundreds of yards, as shown here

    One Mil Equivalents at Hundreds of Yards
    100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
    3.6" 7.2" 10.8"14.4"18.0" 21.6"25.2"28.8" 32.5"36.0"
     

    rabiddawg

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    First focal plane— more expensive, you can range a target at any magnification because the reticle shrinks as you zoom out and enlarges as you zoom in.

    I like ffp for target shooting because I can make the reticle as big or small as I want. Kind of an aim small miss small thing;) for that same reason I don’t like ffp for hunting. In very low light when you zoom in the reticle isn’t big enough. Zoom in enough to see the reticle and the visibility of target is lost. Imo, it’s just not ideal. Perhaps the super high end scopes don’t have that problem but my vortex vipers do.

    Second focal plane— less expensive, only range at a certain magnification, the reticle stays the same regardless of magnification, I have less trouble seeing the reticle in low light when I zoom in on a target
     
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    rabiddawg

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    If I wanted another ffp scope that may be used for hunting it would be illuminated reticle. I have one, but still prefer hunting with my sfp scopes
     
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    Suburbazine

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    I personally prefer MIL, but I range in meters instead of yards so I'm just not comfortable with MOA calculations.
     

    mickey

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    second focal plane— more expensive, you can range a target at any magnification because the reticle shrinks as you zoom out and enlarges as you zoom in.

    I like sfp for target shooting because I can make the reticle as big or small as I want. Kind of an aim small miss small thing;) for that same reason I don’t like sfp for hunting. In very low light when you zoom in the reticle isn’t big enough. Zoom in enough to see the reticle and the visibility of target is lost. Imo, it’s just not ideal. Perhaps the super high end scopes don’t have that problem but my vortex vipers do.

    First focal plane— less expensive, only range at a certain magnification, the reticle stays the same regardless of magnification, I have less trouble seeing the reticle in low light when I zoom in on a target



    Incorrect

    You have the 2 mixed up
     

    mickey

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    I shoot FFP and SFP MOA adjustment scopes in 1/4 and 1/8 moa adjustments.
    MOA adjustments will give you a bit finer adjustment over mil adjustments.
    1/4 moa click scope per click = .25 inch at 100y (actually .261)
    1/10th mil adjustments per click = .36 inch at 100y
    What do I prefer? I go MOA because of the finer adjustments.

    On FFP scopes, your reticle scales with the target as you increase or decrease power in the scope.
    It’s useful when holding for windage/elevation and ranging with the reticle.
    SFP scope reticles do not increase or decrease in size with the target when magnification is changed.
    For the matches I shoot, I like the FFP. It helps with value of holds.

    PRS shooters go FFP/MIL.... period. They will not use MOA scopes.

    I see you are undecided on rings and base.
    A solid set up would be a 20 moa steel nightforce base and a set of Nightforce rings.
    Research bedding the scope base on top of that Remington action. In my opinion, it’s definitely worth doing.
     
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    Barney88PDC

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    I shoot FFP and SFP MOA adjustment scopes in 1/4 and 1/8 moa adjustments.
    MOA adjustments will give you a bit finer adjustment over mil adjustments.
    1/4 moa click scope per click = .25 inch at 100y (actually .261)
    1/10th mil adjustments per click = .36 inch at 100y
    What do I prefer? I go MOA because of the finer adjustments.

    On FFP scopes, your reticle scales with the target as you increase or decrease power in the scope.
    It’s useful when holding for windage/elevation and ranging with the reticle.
    SFP scope reticles do not increase or decrease in size with the target when magnification is changed.
    For the matches I shoot, I like the FFP. It helps with value of holds.

    PRS shooters go FFP/MIL.... period. They will not use MOA scopes.

    I see you are undecided on rings and base.
    A solid set up would be a 20 moa steel nightforce base and a set of Nightforce rings.
    Research bedding the scope base on top of that Remington action. In my opinion, it’s definitely worth doing.

    Listen to this guy ^^^^^.

    As far as calculations and conversions it's all BS as long as you make sure the reticle and the turret adjustments are in the same units. If your scope has a MOA turret (be it 1/4 MOA per click, 1/8th MOA per click, 1/2 MOA per click or 1 MOA per click) make sure that the reticle is an MOA reticle. If you want to go Mil then make sure the turret is in Mil. As stated there are Mil reticles with MOA turret scopes out there. Leupold really botched that one. I have never seen or even heard of a MOA reticle with Mil turrets.

    Think of the reticle as a ruler and the adjustments (turrets) as the correction. When you see an impact on target you can measure how far up / down or left / right from your aim point that impact was with the reticle (ruler). Now you can dial that amount of correction into the scope and with everything else being equal the next shot will impact where your point of aim is. If they are matched there is nothing to convert. Oh that shot was 1 unit high and 2 units right? Ok I need to dial 1 unit down and 2 units left. If you were in MOA then come 1 MOA down and 2 MOA left. If your scope is Mil come 1 Mil down and 2 Mil left. If you have a Mil reticle and MOA turrets now you cannot just measure and dial because they are using 2 different units of measure and that's where "conversion" comes into place.

    Once you have a good zero on your rifle. Buy a ballistic program and input the bullet information as well as the muzzle velocity and your solutions are given to you. MOA or Mil is most typical but it really doesn't matter as long as you get correct information and you dial the scope to match the program. You tell the ballistics program how far you want to shoot, it tells you a number for what you need to dial for elevation and if you dial that on the scope, the elevation part of the equation is done. Now you just have to compensate left and right for wind. You want to shoot 600 yards. Dial 16 MOA or if in Mils 4.8 Mils (typical and they will get you close but it depends on bullet and MV). Either one will get you on target. They are just a number. I like Mil because the amount of clicks and the Mil is the same. For 4.8 Mils I need 48 clicks. For a 1/4 MOA scope and 16 MOA I need 64 clicks.

    I like FFP Mil scopes. I will not use a SFP scope because the "ruler" is only calibrated for one magnification setting. With a FFP scope the reason the reticle shrinks and grows is because the image is shrinking and growing too. So the reticle stays calibrated for any magnification. With a SFP scope the reticle is only good for one magnification setting because the reticle (ruler) stays the same size as the image grows and shrinks. The reticle is typically calibrated for the highest power magnification the scope will magnify to.

    I typically dial my elevation and hold my windage. I shoot PRS style matches and that is what I find works best for that game.
     
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    rabiddawg

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    Incorrect

    You have the 2 mixed up

    I edited my posts.

    I don’t know what happened. I must have been drunk when I posted that. I really do have both types and know the difference.

    Sorry for the confusion.
     
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    HiCapMag

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    What a knowledge smackdown! :D

    Mickey, why you say PRS only go Mil?

    I mean, that's what I got, but curious what the current thinking is.... I been out the game a while:(
     

    mickey

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    What a knowledge smackdown! :D

    Mickey, why you say PRS only go Mil?

    I mean, that's what I got, but curious what the current thinking is.... I been out the game a while:(

    Miss you Bill, it’s been a while.
    Every PRS shooter I know (with the exception of one) is a MIL shooter. I’m sure Bannon or Greg can elaborate a bit more because that is what they are in to.

    I can offer these numbers from the PRS blog back from 2013 on MIL vs MOA and who uses what though.
    7923fab4f6482c6954afa9276fd1fdf9.jpg
     

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