Signs and the weight of law AGAIN!

CAJUNLAWYER · May 15, 2018

leadslinger972 said:
Should they? The law itself is not concise, nor is it precise.

I've bolded the part that people have a discrepancy with. While the provisions of subsection N shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access, it does not define how they can prohibit or restrict said persons.

It's not cut and dry, nor is there case law to support EITHER argument.

COncealed permit holder. Practicing attorney for 35 years SPECIALIZING in criminal law. If a client asked me for an opinion I would tell him that Subsection O means exactly what it says. If an owner meets you at the door, welcomes you in but tells you that no guns are allowed-that is enough under the law to trigger thi ssubsection. Period. You want to be a test case? Bring lots of money for the lawyer. It always amazes me the amount of people spoiling for a fight especially on the internet. It IS cut and dry! If the owner communicates to you in ANY way, whether it be by sign, orally or by jungle drums he wants no firearms on his premises-that's it! Period. End of story. You disobey him and you are at the least going to loose your permit and at worst have a felony on your jacket.

leadslinger972 · May 15, 2018

CAJUNLAWYER said:
COncealed permit holder. Practicing attorney for 35 years SPECIALIZING in criminal law. If a client asked me for an opinion I would tell him that Subsection O means exactly what it says. If an owner meets you at the door, welcomes you in but tells you that no guns are allowed-that is enough under the law to trigger thi ssubsection. Period. You want to be a test case? Bring lots of money for the lawyer. It always amazes me the amount of people spoiling for a fight especially on the internet. It IS cut and dry! If the owner communicates to you in ANY way, whether it be by sign, orally or by jungle drums he wants no firearms on his premises-that's it! Period. End of story. You disobey him and you are at the least going to loose your permit and at worst have a felony on your jacket.

If his only means of conveying that he does not want firearms on his property is a sign that is not clearly visible, what would your advice be then?

thperez1972 · May 15, 2018

CAJUNLAWYER said:
COncealed permit holder. Practicing attorney for 35 years SPECIALIZING in criminal law. If a client asked me for an opinion I would tell him that Subsection O means exactly what it says. If an owner meets you at the door, welcomes you in but tells you that no guns are allowed-that is enough under the law to trigger thi ssubsection. Period. You want to be a test case? Bring lots of money for the lawyer. It always amazes me the amount of people spoiling for a fight especially on the internet. It IS cut and dry! If the owner communicates to you in ANY way, whether it be by sign, orally or by jungle drums he wants no firearms on his premises-that's it! Period. End of story. You disobey him and you are at the least going to loose your permit and at worst have a felony on your jacket.

Then please address my scenario. A business has a sign stating firearms are not permitted in the business. The sign is behind the counter and cannot be seen until you walk up to the counter. They have met the requirements you mention. You walk in the store with a concealed handgun. Because you have not yet walked to the counter, you cannot see the sign. Is that illegal carrying?

Barry J · May 15, 2018

I am paying attention, you are the one with the off the wall scenarios. As soon as you are told or see the sign, you should leave. But it's your permit, do whatever you want.

machinedrummer · May 15, 2018

Does the *Forget the dog. Beware of owner* count?

leadslinger972 · May 15, 2018

Barry J said:
I am paying attention, you are the one with the off the wall scenarios. As soon as you are told or see the sign, you should leave. But it's your permit, do whatever you want.

What if you never see the sign?

Barry J · May 15, 2018

leadslinger972 said:
What if you never see the sign?

Plead ignorance when you go for a hearing, if they give you a hearing. You can claim you never saw a sign on the front door. No more "WHAT IF'S" for me.

leadslinger972 · May 15, 2018

Barry J said:
Plead ignorance when you go for a hearing, if they give you a hearing. You can claim you never saw a sign on the front door. No more "WHAT IF'S" for me.

No what ifs? Sure thing...

I walked into a store that had a no gun sign recently. I even bought some items while I was there. When I was leaving the store, I noticed the sticker on the sliding automatic door. As the door opens, the no guns sticker is covered by a large advertisement on the adjacent window. I suppose I should have scoured the exterior prior to entering, but I didn't.

CAJUNLAWYER · May 15, 2018

thperez1972 said:
Then please address my scenario. A business has a sign stating firearms are not permitted in the business. The sign is behind the counter and cannot be seen until you walk up to the counter. They have met the requirements you mention. You walk in the store with a concealed handgun. Because you have not yet walked to the counter, you cannot see the sign. Is that illegal carrying?

Yes it is. Your defense would be that you did not see the sign until you walked up to the counter. At which time you see the sign and you need to immediately exit and disarm yourself or you ARE breaking the law. But in reality in the situation you describe nobody is going to tackle you and frisk you when you hit the door and then hold you for the police-that's just plain stupid. If the owner or agent sees you walk in carrying and yells out hey hit the road no carrying allowed look at the sign behind the bar-if you don't leave immediately you are breaking the law. If you stand there arguing with the guy, that you technically are not breaking any law because you were unaware you were in a prohibited establishment until you were told/saw the sign you are braking the law. Once you are aware you need to turn around and leave or you're breaking the law-it's really pretty simple. How hard is that to understand?????? You seem like you are itching for trouble.

CAJUNLAWYER · May 15, 2018

leadslinger972 said:
If his only means of conveying that he does not want firearms on his property is a sign that is not clearly visible, what would your advice be then?

If you are charged and the basis is that the property was posted, all they have to prove is posting and carrying-It's up to you to prove the sign wasn't visible to an ordinary man. If the jury buys it-you win; if not you lose. In the REAL WORLD, (not internet hypothets)You are going to be told to leave first if you are noticed carrying and if you are smart you will politely say, "Sorry-didn't see the sign, I'm leaving NOW" and no cop in the world is going to charge you. If you are an alpha hotel and say you ain't leaving because the sign was hidden-you are going to be arrested and the charges WILL stick because by then you knew it was posted.
If you go in armed, do not notice the sign until you have finished your business and are leaving, then you have beaten da man. You have broken the law and gotten away with it. in other words YOU ARE DA MAN. Kinda like if a tree falls in the woods with nobody around-did it make a noise and if it did who cares.

leadslinger972 · May 15, 2018

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Yes it is. Your defense would be that you did not see the sign until you walked up to the counter. At which time you see the sign and you need to immediately exit and disarm yourself or you ARE breaking the law. But in reality in the situation you describe nobody is going to tackle you and frisk you when you hit the door and then hold you for the police-that's just plain stupid. If the owner or agent sees you walk in carrying and yells out hey hit the road no carrying allowed look at the sign behind the bar-if you don't leave immediately you are breaking the law. If you stand there arguing with the guy, that you technically are not breaking any law because you were unaware you were in a prohibited establishment until you were told/saw the sign you are braking the law. Once you are aware you need to turn around and leave or you're breaking the law-it's really pretty simple. How hard is that to understand?????? You seem like you are itching for trouble.

No one is saying that you shouldn't leave if you are told firearms are prohibited.

thperez1972 · May 15, 2018

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Yes it is. Your defense would be that you did not see the sign until you walked up to the counter. At which time you see the sign and you need to immediately exit and disarm yourself or you ARE breaking the law. But in reality in the situation you describe nobody is going to tackle you and frisk you when you hit the door and then hold you for the police-that's just plain stupid. If the owner or agent sees you walk in carrying and yells out hey hit the road no carrying allowed look at the sign behind the bar-if you don't leave immediately you are breaking the law. If you stand there arguing with the guy, that you technically are not breaking any law because you were unaware you were in a prohibited establishment until you were told/saw the sign you are braking the law. Once you are aware you need to turn around and leave or you're breaking the law-it's really pretty simple. How hard is that to understand?????? You seem like you are itching for trouble.

I get the "once you know" part. I'm talking about before you know. If the law is cut and dry, the placement of the sign is no defense. I'm not itching for trouble. I'm presenting a realistic scenario to show the law isn't cut and dry.

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JBP55 · May 15, 2018

leadslinger972 said:
You mean like the attorney that commented in the last thread?

I would use an Attorney with a ponytail in downtown BR if I needed one for serious business. $$$$$

thperez1972 · May 15, 2018

JBP55 said:
I would use an Attorney with a ponytail in downtown BR if I needed one for serious business. $$$$$

The one with the cane?

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Gator 45/70 · May 15, 2018

......

CAJUNLAWYER · May 15, 2018

thperez1972 said:
I get the "once you know" part. I'm talking about before you know. If the law is cut and dry, the placement of the sign is no defense. I'm not itching for trouble. I'm presenting a realistic scenario to show the law isn't cut and dry.

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you are not presenting a realistic scenario as I pointed out.
If you don't know; you are not breaking the law-it's up to the state to prove you knew. It's called mens rea Pretty cut and dry if you ask me. I've had enough fun playing for now. I've put three kids through LSU with fees paid by people who try to see how close they can get to the edge without falling off. If you are a CCP holder one of the abilities you should have is possession of a modicum of situational awareness which includes observing whether or not an establishment is posted. And believe it or not most who post do it conspicuously because they do not want you carrying in their establishment. If they don't and you happen to be the unlucky one who gets popped it will be on you to show that the posting was not adequate for the reasonable man to see. If you are that worried about this, it seems obvious that you should not possess a CCP and carry a concealed weapon until you feel comfortable in assessing current situations. In other words until you can use common sense. Pure and simple.

JBP55 · May 15, 2018

thperez1972 said:
The one with the cane?

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Is his first name the same as mine?

thperez1972 · May 15, 2018

CAJUNLAWYER said:
all they have to prove is posting and carrying-It's up to you to prove the sign wasn't visible to an ordinary man.

CAJUNLAWYER said:
If you don't know; you are not breaking the law-it's up to the state to prove you knew.

Yep. Sounds like it's pretty cut and dry to me.

And I'm not asking from the perspective of a CHP holder looking to push the envelope. I'm asking from the perspective of an LEO looking to see a lawyer's interpretation of the law. I don't care how long you've been practicing or how much money you've made, your statements contradict each other. The first interpretation says intention doesn't matter, simply carrying is enough. The second interpretation says the state has to prove intent.

So, please, tell us again how it's cut and dry.

met7881 · May 15, 2018

If an business does post a sign and you do carry. Whats he penalty? If they ask you to leave , then you leave. If you don't its a trespass , correct. So is there a penalty for you if you leave the premise when asked? Can the business detain you until police arrival?

charlie12 · May 15, 2018

All that time they spend at the Capitol with ******** stuff they need to pass a gun sign law like Texas to clear it up.

Signs and the weight of law AGAIN!

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