selling a rifle built on 80%

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  • KDerekT83

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    So yesterday I had a automotive issue come up, that's going to cost me alot of money over the next couple months. I have a rifle, that I'll probably end up listing for sale to help with this cost, however it's built ( by me ) on a 80% forged lower. How do I go about selling this weapon legally, considering it doesn't have a serial number, or other markings of any sort? Do I just meet the potential buyer at a FFL dealer, and let the FFL deal with the serial number stuff, or is there more to it?

    Since everyone likes a little gun porn, here are a couple pics of the rifle in question.
     

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    Last edited:

    topgunz1

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    Lowers are cheap, swap the parts over to one with an S/N and keep your built lower. With the low cost of AR's nowadays anyway, I'd probably just keep the gun.
     

    John_

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    If you put a serial number on it, you can sell it like any other rifle. You cannot legally sell a rifle (receiver) without a serial number on it, a violation of federal law.

    The simple answer is if you want to sell it as a complete rifle, get somebody local to engrave a SN on it. You create the SN, no big deal. You could even do it yourself with a cheap engraver, but the quality might not be the best. How good are you at printing? or GF/wife?

    Or simple hammer impact stamps, individual letters and number stamps. We used to use these in a shop I worked in 35 years ago. https://www.grainger.com/product/C-..._on_Your_Search-_-IDPPLARECS&cm_vc=IDPPLARECS

    Once you put a SN on it, its like any other rifle sale, person to person.
     
    Last edited:

    340six

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    If you put a serial number on it, you can sell it like any other rifle. You cannot legally sell a rifle (receiver) without a serial number on it, a violation of federal law.

    The simple answer is if you want to sell it as a complete rifle, get somebody local to engrave a SN on it. You create the SN, no big deal. You could even do it yourself with a cheap engraver, but the quality might not be the best. How good are you at printing? or GF/wife?

    Or simple hammer impact stamps, individual letters and number stamps. We used to use these in a shop I worked in 35 years ago. https://www.grainger.com/product/C-..._on_Your_Search-_-IDPPLARECS&cm_vc=IDPPLARECS

    Once you put a SN on it, its like any other rifle sale, person to person.

    I remember guys doing just that on some thread at AR-15 a forum. They got some Vinyl tape and some type of acid and did it. Then filled it with paint looked great someone as you say can't not transfer or sell one with out it
     

    Troedoff

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    Even if you Serialize it, it is not legal for sale unless you have a license to manufacture. If you were to serialize it to sell, then your completion of the 80 lower could be considered manufacture without a license, and your intent of personal use called into question. It is not legal to manufacture a firearm by any individual for anything other than personal use. I am seriously put off by some of the answers given in this thread, and the bad information going around here. Even if it were okay to serialize it yourself, you would still be responsible to keep A/D records, and all other federal reporting information.

    There is no legal way to sell a completed 80 lower. It's manufacture was only legal under the precedent of personal not for transfer use.
     
    Last edited:

    John_

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    Even if you Serialize it, it is not legal for sale unless you have a license to manufacture. If you were to serialize it to sell, then your completion of the 80 lower could be considered manufacture without a license, and your intent of personal use called into question. It is not legal to manufacture a firearm by any individual for anything other than personal use. I am seriously put off by some of the answers given in this thread, and the bad information going around here. Even if it were okay to serialize it yourself, you would still be responsible to keep A/D records, and all other federal reporting information.

    There is no legal way to sell a completed 80 lower. It's manufacture was only legal under the precedent of personal not for transfer use.

    You have a link to federal law to back up what you state above? How about a link to the BATF?
     

    John_

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    Even if you Serialize it, it is not legal for sale unless you have a license to manufacture. If you were to serialize it to sell, then your completion of the 80 lower could be considered manufacture without a license, and your intent of personal use called into question. It is not legal to manufacture a firearm by any individual for anything other than personal use. I am seriously put off by some of the answers given in this thread, and the bad information going around here. Even if it were okay to serialize it yourself, you would still be responsible to keep A/D records, and all other federal reporting information.

    There is no legal way to sell a completed 80 lower. It's manufacture was only legal under the precedent of personal not for transfer use.

    Furthermore, I suggest you read this article on line at guns holster and gear. The author sent emails to the BATFE requesting information, specifically if a guy builds a rifle with an 80% lower receiver then at a later date decides he wants to sell said rifle to another individual. The BATFE response letters are in the article, and support what I suggested the OP.

    BATFE responses dated 12-28-16 by L. Babbie, Firearms Enforcement Specialist, BATFE, Washington D.C.

    I tried to copy the letter and paste here but am unable.

    Link to article: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/
     

    oppsImissed

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    It all come down to Intent.
    He built it. He intended to keep it forever for personal use.
    He needs to sell it now. He can legally sell it as is to anyone who can legally own a firearm.

    Now if he milled it with the INTENT to sell than he broke the law and would need to be a FFL07 holder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Furthermore, I suggest you read this article on line at guns holster and gear. The author sent emails to the BATFE requesting information, specifically if a guy builds a rifle with an 80% lower receiver then at a later date decides he wants to sell said rifle to another individual. The BATFE response letters are in the article, and support what I suggested the OP.

    BATFE responses dated 12-28-16 by L. Babbie, Firearms Enforcement Specialist, BATFE, Washington D.C.

    I tried to copy the letter and paste here but am unable.

    Link to article: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

    Good work John. I'm too lazy to Google search for other people.
     

    Troedoff

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    Furthermore, I suggest you read this article on line at guns holster and gear. The author sent emails to the BATFE requesting information, specifically if a guy builds a rifle with an 80% lower receiver then at a later date decides he wants to sell said rifle to another individual. The BATFE response letters are in the article, and support what I suggested the OP.

    BATFE responses dated 12-28-16 by L. Babbie, Firearms Enforcement Specialist, BATFE, Washington D.C.

    I tried to copy the letter and paste here but am unable.

    Link to article: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

    I have read all those articles, and have seen all the chatter about it. It is well known that I am not a person that likes to toe the line between legal, and not. I err on the side of caution in all legal matters. In all the regulations I have read, there has been no mention of the legality or illegality of selling a firearm manufactured for personal intent. In my eyes, personal intent means personal, and forever. It is not a transferable firearm. There is no precedent on it, because the end user can always just say that they milled it themselves, and no one would be the wiser, which is why I do not believe the ATF has put much emphasis on it. Burden of proof would be a piteh. However if someone was a repeat offender, or selling them like cakes out the back door, then they would eventually be caught. It isn't likely you would have any problem if it was one you built a while ago, and had something come up, but if you build one every week, and have something come up every other week, you may run into a problem eventually.

    End of the day it is going to be like any other firearm case that has been prosecuted. It will be the 18th charge you catch while they are throwing the book at you for whatever they really arrested you for.

    I have licenses I am not willing to compromise with, and not willing to toe the line just because it technically may or may not be legal or illegal due to vague interpretations of the law.
     

    Troedoff

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    Until there is some precedent established, it will be like the " Does a Sign carry the weight of law in Louisiana" Debate. Do what you want and every body laugh till someone gets hurt.
     

    John_

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    I have read all those articles, and have seen all the chatter about it. It is well known that I am not a person that likes to toe the line between legal, and not. I err on the side of caution in all legal matters. In all the regulations I have read, there has been no mention of the legality or illegality of selling a firearm manufactured for personal intent. In my eyes, personal intent means personal, and forever. It is not a transferable firearm. There is no precedent on it, because the end user can always just say that they milled it themselves, and no one would be the wiser, which is why I do not believe the ATF has put much emphasis on it. Burden of proof would be a piteh. However if someone was a repeat offender, or selling them like cakes out the back door, then they would eventually be caught. It isn't likely you would have any problem if it was one you built a while ago, and had something come up, but if you build one every week, and have something come up every other week, you may run into a problem eventually.

    End of the day it is going to be like any other firearm case that has been prosecuted. It will be the 18th charge you catch while they are throwing the book at you for whatever they really arrested you for.

    I have licenses I am not willing to compromise with, and not willing to toe the line just because it technically may or may not be legal or illegal due to vague interpretations of the law.

    Well the BATFE states otherwise, right in the response letter I posted above. You are pretty damned funny I must say. Borderline ignorant.
     
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