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  1. #101
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saw View Post
    Whoa dude. I donít think we get to generalize all LEO as a whole yet. One bad egg maybe? Sure many other cases that get the publicity, but think of the daily interactions that go great.

    Interesting question you pose about the use of deadly force to dispatch the shooter. Iíll be the first to say you have to have a specific set of cirmcumstances met before I would say you are within your rights to dispatch the shooter. What specifically makes you think the homeowner here would potentially be within his right legally to use deadly force? Serious question and Iím not trying to be argumentative. I agree 100% that these are the scenarios that should be thought thru ahead of time to aid in correct decision making.
    One?

    Really?

    There are plenty of videos of LEs shooting dogs.

    Itís probably not ďmostĒ but I want to see cops arresting cops who break the law. Thatís how you regain public support.

    Ainít gonna happen, unfortunately.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #102
    -Administrator-
    Make your own luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by 991GT3 View Post
    One?

    Really?

    There are plenty of videos of LEs shooting dogs.

    It’s probably not *most* but I want to see cops arresting cops who break the law. That’s how you regain public support.

    Ain’t gonna happen, unfortunately.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'd venture to say there are a lot more videos of LEs not shooting dogs and that it is definitely not most.

    Plenty of cops have been arrested for unlawful uses of force (shooting when not legal). That may happen in this case. It might not. I'm not too familiar with the nitty gritty of the laws regarding use of force on an approaching dog, specifically if they reference the scenario where the dog is the size of a small cat. We all know it's not a good/valid shooting in this case, but I can't speculate on whether or not it is illegal under current law.
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
    --Michael Jordan


    Failing to plan is planning to fail.

  3. #103
    Marksman

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    This guy deserves the worst punishments legally allowed.

    Statistically speaking officers that misplace the public trust like this are anomalies, but if you watch the news or YouTube you will begin to believe otherwise. Thats because when a traffic stop goes smoothly its not news, it happens thousands of times a day.

    Hundreds of thousands of officers serve their entire career never finding themselves on a YouTube video or on the wrong end of a public outcry, but unfortunately, some guys do. When they do, its used as a narrative to stoke racial tension or laud the values of a non-aggression society.

    When the dust settles cops are good. They are good people, they effect good on our society, and they usually are good huggers. But, M&M's are good too (obviously not the same, we need good cops and M&M's just make us fat), and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it.

    Are those statistics weighted correctly? I'm not sure, because I ate more M&M's last year than I will likely interact with an officer (in his/her official capacity) in my lifetime.

    See its not the frequency, but the implications from that 1/300,000 police interactions (or whatever that number maybe) that might go horribly wrong. There are bad apples in every bunch weather that is welders, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, etc., but when the bad apple is a public servant the public "gets to play." This is often counterproductive, and things only get stickier when good apples are routinely maligned for doing their job well.

    So, after all that, what is the answer? I don't know, because I'm not a police officer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.


    I will say that when a good guy starts to make horrible life choices (like shoot a defenseless fluffy rat), there are usually warning signs that lead up to the life altering bad decisions, regardless if he is Joe the plumber or Officer Malloy. So, who is in charge of catching those warning signs? Everyone and no one. I would caution, if you are stopped by an officer, and he's a little surly, don't point it out to him. If you feel its a real issue, after everyone has safely gone about their day you can file a complaint. Remember this is not a field where the customer is always right, but a reasonable person may begin to notice a pattern. By the way don't be a tattle-tail because you got a ticket either. I take for granted that when good officers see these signs from a pier or subordinate they are already confronting them, its just not something that makes the news.

    How is that for a first post?
    Last edited by Bangswitch; January 10th, 2019 at 03:47 PM.

  4. #104
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    This guy deserves the worst punishments legally allowed.

    Statistically speaking officers that misplace the public trust like this are anomalies, but if you watch the news or YouTube you will begin to believe otherwise. Thats because when a traffic stop goes smoothly its not news, it happens thousands of times a day.

    Hundreds of thousands of officers serve their entire career never finding themselves on a YouTube video or on the wrong end of a public outcry, but unfortunately, some guys do. When they do, its used as a narrative to stoke racial tension or laud the values of a non-aggression society.

    When the dust settles cops are good. They are good people, they effect good on our society, and they usually are good huggers. But, M&M's are good too (obviously not the same, we need good cops and M&M's just make us fat), and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it.

    Are those statistics weighted correctly? I'm not sure, because I ate more M&M's last year than I will likely interact with an officer (in his/her official capacity) in my lifetime.

    See its not the frequency, but the implications from that 1/300,000 police interactions (or whatever that number maybe) that might go horribly wrong. There are bad apples in every bunch weather that is welders, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, etc., but when the bad apple is a public servant the public "gets to play." This is often counterproductive, and things only get stickier when good apples are routinely maligned for doing their job well.

    So, after all that, what is the answer? I don't know, because I'm not a police officer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.


    I will say that when a good guy starts to make horrible life choices (like shoot a defenseless fluffy rat), there are usually warning signs that lead up to the life altering bad decisions, regardless if he is Joe the plumber or Officer Malloy. So, who is in charge of catching those warning signs? Everyone and no one. I would caution, if you are stopped by an officer, and he's a little surly, don't point it out to him. If you feel its a real issue, after everyone has safely gone about their day you can file a complaint. Remember this is not a field where the customer is always right, but a reasonable person may begin to notice a pattern. By the way don't be a tattle-tail because you got a ticket either. I take for granted that when good officers see these signs from a pier or subordinate they are already confronting them, its just not something that makes the news.

    How is that for a first post?
    Thank you sir, that was a great first post and spot on.


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  5. #105
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    This guy deserves the worst punishments legally allowed.

    Statistically speaking officers that misplace the public trust like this are anomalies, but if you watch the news or YouTube you will begin to believe otherwise. Thats because when a traffic stop goes smoothly its not news, it happens thousands of times a day.

    Hundreds of thousands of officers serve their entire career never finding themselves on a YouTube video or on the wrong end of a public outcry, but unfortunately, some guys do. When they do, its used as a narrative to stoke racial tension or laud the values of a non-aggression society.

    When the dust settles cops are good. They are good people, they effect good on our society, and they usually are good huggers. But, M&M's are good too (obviously not the same, we need good cops and M&M's just make us fat), and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it.

    Are those statistics weighted correctly? I'm not sure, because I ate more M&M's last year than I will likely interact with an officer (in his/her official capacity) in my lifetime.

    See its not the frequency, but the implications from that 1/300,000 police interactions (or whatever that number maybe) that might go horribly wrong. There are bad apples in every bunch weather that is welders, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, etc., but when the bad apple is a public servant the public "gets to play." This is often counterproductive, and things only get stickier when good apples are routinely maligned for doing their job well.

    So, after all that, what is the answer? I don't know, because I'm not a police officer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.


    I will say that when a good guy starts to make horrible life choices (like shoot a defenseless fluffy rat), there are usually warning signs that lead up to the life altering bad decisions, regardless if he is Joe the plumber or Officer Malloy. So, who is in charge of catching those warning signs? Everyone and no one. I would caution, if you are stopped by an officer, and he's a little surly, don't point it out to him. If you feel its a real issue, after everyone has safely gone about their day you can file a complaint. Remember this is not a field where the customer is always right, but a reasonable person may begin to notice a pattern. By the way don't be a tattle-tail because you got a ticket either. I take for granted that when good officers see these signs from a pier or subordinate they are already confronting them, its just not something that makes the news.

    How is that for a first post?
    Congratulations sir, you won the internet today.

  6. #106
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    This guy deserves the worst punishments legally allowed.

    Statistically speaking officers that misplace the public trust like this are anomalies, but if you watch the news or YouTube you will begin to believe otherwise. Thats because when a traffic stop goes smoothly its not news, it happens thousands of times a day.

    Hundreds of thousands of officers serve their entire career never finding themselves on a YouTube video or on the wrong end of a public outcry, but unfortunately, some guys do. When they do, its used as a narrative to stoke racial tension or laud the values of a non-aggression society.

    When the dust settles cops are good. They are good people, they effect good on our society, and they usually are good huggers. But, M&M's are good too (obviously not the same, we need good cops and M&M's just make us fat), and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it.

    Are those statistics weighted correctly? I'm not sure, because I ate more M&M's last year than I will likely interact with an officer (in his/her official capacity) in my lifetime.

    See its not the frequency, but the implications from that 1/300,000 police interactions (or whatever that number maybe) that might go horribly wrong. There are bad apples in every bunch weather that is welders, plumbers, doctors, lawyers, etc., but when the bad apple is a public servant the public "gets to play." This is often counterproductive, and things only get stickier when good apples are routinely maligned for doing their job well.

    So, after all that, what is the answer? I don't know, because I'm not a police officer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.


    I will say that when a good guy starts to make horrible life choices (like shoot a defenseless fluffy rat), there are usually warning signs that lead up to the life altering bad decisions, regardless if he is Joe the plumber or Officer Malloy. So, who is in charge of catching those warning signs? Everyone and no one. I would caution, if you are stopped by an officer, and he's a little surly, don't point it out to him. If you feel its a real issue, after everyone has safely gone about their day you can file a complaint. Remember this is not a field where the customer is always right, but a reasonable person may begin to notice a pattern. By the way don't be a tattle-tail because you got a ticket either. I take for granted that when good officers see these signs from a pier or subordinate they are already confronting them, its just not something that makes the news.

    How is that for a first post?
    It is a pretty good first post but I have an issue with the M&M comparison. That makes it sound like the fix is somewhat easy. Yes, public outcry would force Mars to do something. What would that something be? They would immediately remove the product from the shelves. They would make it so their product would not come in contact with the public. You can't pull all the cops off the street because one cop in Arkansas shot a dog or because a cop in South Carolina shot someone from behind. Well...you can but some people would complain about that. But other than the comparison, it was a pretty good post.

  7. #107
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    It is a pretty good first post but I have an issue with the M&M comparison. That makes it sound like the fix is somewhat easy. Yes, public outcry would force Mars to do something. What would that something be? They would immediately remove the product from the shelves. They would make it so their product would not come in contact with the public. You can't pull all the cops off the street because one cop in Arkansas shot a dog or because a cop in South Carolina shot someone from behind. Well...you can but some people would complain about that. But other than the comparison, it was a pretty good post.
    Fair enough. You are right the response to public outcry can't be the same, but the severity of the two issues are equally troubling. One thing the public would likely do is stop eating M&M's (regardless if Mar's pulled them), and the public can't just stop interacting with police either (we could however limit our interaction by just "acting right"), so I have plenty of holes in the analogy, but its a fun one.

    One thing the public can do is stop treating police different. We as a society either treat cops like demi-gods or Satan himself. Neither is fair to the officer or our society. A police officer is a person who chose to do an often thankless, difficult and dangerous job, but they are just as human as the rest of us. They are public servants but they don't answer directly to you just because you are the public.

    Conversely as the public we have a right to demand the best, but not from the side of the road after you were clocked 25 over. LEO positions are appointed not elected with the exception of sheriff in most places, so if you don't like something, the threat of supporting the other guy next election doesn't normally work, but appointments always lead back to an elected official (albeit it may be 20+ layers), so at the end of the day we get the police/sheriff departments we ask for.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; January 11th, 2019 at 09:28 AM.

  8. #108
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    Fair enough. You are right the response to public outcry can't be the same, but the severity of the two issues are equally troubling. One thing the public would likely do is stop eating M&M's (regardless if Mar's pulled them), and the public can't just stop interacting with police either (we could however limit our interaction by just "acting right"), so I have plenty of holes in the analogy, but its a fun one.

    One thing the public can do is stop treating police different. We as a society either treat cops like demi-gods or Satan himself. Neither is fair to the officer or our society. A police officer is a person who chose to do an often thankless, difficult and dangerous job, but they are just as human as the rest of us. They are public servants but they don't answer directly to you just because you are the public.

    Conversely as the public we have a right to demand the best, but not from the side of the road after you were clocked 25 over. LEO positions are appointed not elected with the exception of sheriff in most places, so if you don't like something, the threat of supporting the other guy next election doesn't normally work, but appointments always lead back to an elected official (albeit it may be 20+ layers), so at the end of the day we get the police/sheriff departments we ask for.
    The severity of the two might be equally troubling but they are fundamentally different. With M&M's the issue is either random due to a processing issue or it's a rogue employee creating the issue in multiple M&M's. You don't have each M&M deciding on its own whether or not to be poisonous. There's no committee evaluating each M&M before it gets put in a bag and sent out to the public. The rest of your comment is pretty spot on. And I get why you made the comparison. I just don't think it's a valid comparison. Do you advocate an overhaul of the health care system because a doctor in Florida mistook a kidney for a tumor during a spinal procedure and removed it? Are examples like this an indication of a systemic problem? Or should this be treated as an isolated incident? To say the public should demand a change implies there is a systemic problem.

  9. #109
    Professional Amateur

    Premium Member

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    Bad look? Absolutely.

    But I tend to focus on the positives: At least the deputy wasn't carrying a 10mm.


    Sam
    Central/Pride, Evil Black Rifle Parish(EBR), LA

    ďRemember the first rule of gunfighting... Ďhave a gun.í"
    -Col. Jeff Cooper

  10. #110
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    The severity of the two might be equally troubling but they are fundamentally different. With M&M's the issue is either random due to a processing issue or it's a rogue employee creating the issue in multiple M&M's. You don't have each M&M deciding on its own whether or not to be poisonous. There's no committee evaluating each M&M before it gets put in a bag and sent out to the public. The rest of your comment is pretty spot on. And I get why you made the comparison. I just don't think it's a valid comparison. Do you advocate an overhaul of the health care system because a doctor in Florida mistook a kidney for a tumor during a spinal procedure and removed it? Are examples like this an indication of a systemic problem? Or should this be treated as an isolated incident? To say the public should demand a change implies there is a systemic problem.

    I agree the quality control for M&M's vs officers doesn't compute, but I like M&M's and it provides a little humor to a topic where people have entrenched positions. In addition to your argument against the M&M comparison; M&M's don't get to change what they are made of once they get past inspector #253, humans have the unique trait that allows themselves change (sometimes spiral out of control), often with little warning or subtle warnings.

    To the point of "is it systemic?". I believe the word I used before was "anomalies". Also this is why I liked the M&M's analogy. Statistically 1/100,000,000 is an anomaly, but my preference would be, 0/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 M&M's contain cyanide (by the way any math wiz know how to spell that number? I don't), because I like to eat M&M's. Whatever the actual statistics on police interaction is, is likely an accomplishment worth lauding, but I'm sure we can all agree striving for as close to perfection that is achievable this side of Heaven is the goal. I do believe we as a society should focus on changing the way the public interacts with officers, but we are too interested in snap-chat bullying, and what Kardashian is making babies with whom, and who gets to use what restroom to affect a societal change on something like this.

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