Shotguns for home defense

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

Bangswitch said:
When I was young boy I hunted with my 870. The black stock was often brown from the muddy trails an my lack of attentiveness. One time some grit got in the action and cause the feed ramp to jam. It was a cluster that would be hard to clear in a gunfight but that’s all I’ve got. What could catastrophicly fail? (Actual question I’m not baiting you)

It’s rare, but action arms have broken. I’ve also seen feed ramps fail. That’s more common. The cheaper shotguns have binding issues with the action arms. IIRC, the maverick shotguns people love only have a single action arm.

Even if an auto had a gas system failure, you essentially have a straight pull shotgun using the charging handle. You could manually feed rounds if you had to. If the action in a pump fails, you’re out of luck.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
You call it fantasizing, I call it a *Bill Drill.*

A drill developed by Bill Wilson. If you don’t know what it is, you should do some research.

You want to be Billy Badass and fantasize about how you will kill an intruder, but you seem to have no clue when it comes to performing the necessary tasks to do so.

What about anything I’ve posted ever in the month and a half I’ve been here would lead anyone to believe I think I’m billy badass? But I will ignore you ignorance because you don’t know me.

By the way tell Straw Woman and the Straw kids hello.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

I mean:

I've already stated that I've NEVER been involved in a home invasion, and as such, proclaim no expertise on the subject matter.

Perhaps your qualifications will change my mind. Perhaps I'll sell my TAC-14, and rely solely on my MP 2.0.

Maybe I'll go buy a Gl, . . ., Gloc, . . . one of those Austrian guns. *gasp*.

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

Bangswitch said:
What about anything I’ve posted ever in the month and a half I’ve been here would lead anyone to believe I think I’m billy badass? But I will ignore you ignorance because you don’t know me.

By the way tell Straw Woman and the Straw kids hello.

You mentioned shooting 100 yards when I asked about speed at typical gunfight distances. No one cares about your abilities from a bench at 100 yards.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
It’s rare, but action arms have broken. I’ve also seen feed ramps fail. That’s more common. The cheaper shotguns have binding issues with the action arms. IIRC, the maverick shotguns people love only have a single action arm.

Even if an auto had a gas system failure, you essentially have a straight pull shotgun using the charging handle. You could manually feed rounds if you had to. If the action in a pump fails, you’re out of luck.

Most manufacturers use the same feed ramps for the pumps as they do the autos. Just saying. None of that sounds catastrophic by the way I was expecting something along the lines of out of battery discharge or something when you said catastrophic.

thperez1972 · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
You call it fantasizing, I call it a *Bill Drill.*

A drill developed by Bill Wilson. If you don’t know what it is, you should do some research.

You want to be Billy Badass and fantasize about how you will kill an intruder, but you seem to have no clue when it comes to performing the necessary tasks to do so.

The "Bill Drill" or whatever training method you use on the controlled environment of a one-way range develops a good base to build on. But those skills are of little value if you stand in the middle of the room and wait for the bad guy to walk in before you draw like you learned in the Bill Drill. For that, you should evaluate your specific setup and because the best course of action for a given situation. In other words, fantasizing. Based on your comments, I would be surprised if you've had extensive military and/or police training. Both of their training is a mix of both aspects of training: skill development training and scenario based training. Both are important to developing a good plan of defense. Or, in the case of the military, a good plan of offense.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

DBMJR1 said:
I mean:

I've already stated that I've NEVER been involved in a home invasion, and as such, proclaim no expertise on the subject matter.

Perhaps your qualifications will change my mind. Perhaps I'll sell my TAC-14, and rely solely on my MP 2.0.

Maybe I'll go buy a Gl, . . ., Gloc, . . . one of those Austrian guns. *gasp*.

So your reasoning for choosing an 8 round shotgun with no stock is a rather poorly made choice.

Go ahead and shoot a simple Bill Drill with your shotgun, then shoot it with a rifle. You harp on the ideology that a good hit from a 12g round will end the fight, but you have no clue if you’re able to quickly make a follow up shot when you inevitably miss.

Who mentioned pistols?
Grab a rifle.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
You mentioned shooting 100 yards when I asked about speed at typical gunfight distances. No one cares about your abilities from a bench at 100 yards.

Just like no one gives a crap some want-a-be gunfighter cares how fast you can dump a mag into paper. That was my point. I demonstrated how I can dump a mag into paper with precision, but I can still miss vitals on an animal with 12x18 inch lungs.

When your paper starts firing back or startles you while you are kicked back drinking coffee let me know how you do.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

My training is antiquated.

I was taught that I should become one with the ground. (Something I actually practiced in real life situations) You would be amazed at how close to the ground one can get, without digging a hole.

I doubt that that training would do me any good in a home invasion, just as I doubt that standing in the middle of a room, and drawing from a holster, (as in a Bill Drill), would benefit me. My pajamas don't have gun belts anyways.

As stated. My plan is to hide, call 911, and shoot anything that comes down the hallway, including the cats. Defend the wife. She knows how to do laundry, and I like clean clothes.

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

Bangswitch said:
Just like no one gives a crap some want-a-be gunfighter cares how fast you can dump a mag into paper. That was my point. I demonstrated how I can dump a mag into paper with precision, but I can still miss vitals on an animal with 12x18 inch lungs.

When your paper starts firing back or startles you while you a kicked back drinking coffee let me know how you do.

Pay attention...

The drill has nothing to do with stress. It has everything to do with understanding your limitations of speed and accuracy.

Multiple people in this thread have suggested using a pump shotgun is preferable solely based on the ballistics, but ignore the recoil and inability to make quick follow up shots due to the design of the firearm itself. That doesn’t even touch on reloading.

I would be surprised if anyone in this thread can shoot a Bill Drill with their pump gun in less than five seconds.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
So your reasoning for choosing an 8 round shotgun with no stock is a rather poorly made choice.

Go ahead and shoot a simple Bill Drill with your shotgun, then shoot it with a rifle. You harp on the ideology that a good hit from a 12g round will end the fight, but you have no clue if you’re able to quickly make a follow up shot when you inevitably miss.

Who mentioned pistols?
Grab a rifle.

So your plan in a home invasion is to grab a rifle, but shotguns are too unwieldy to turn corners in a house? Yet my TAC-14 is less unwieldy in a house than your rifle ?

Bill Drill again?

Please.

What are YOUR qualifications?

I'm beginning to think that your some 13 year old keyboard commando who plays call of duty, or some such.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
Pay attention...

The drill has nothing to do with stress. It has everything to do with understanding your limitations of speed and accuracy.

Multiple people in this thread have suggested using a pump shotgun is preferable solely based on the ballistics, but ignore the recoil and inability to make quick follow up shots due to the design of the firearm itself. That doesn’t even touch on reloading.

I would be surprised if anyone in this thread can shoot a Bill Drill with their pump gun in less than five seconds.

And I think I speak for everyone when I say, I would be surprise if you got two shots off if someone was returning fire.

By the way If you are interested I done a bill drill. Whoops hope no one thinks I’m a badass now.

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

DBMJR1 said:
So your plan in a home invasion is to grab a rifle, but shotguns are too unwieldy to turn corners in a house? Yet my TAC-14 is less unwieldy in a house than your rifle ?

Bill Drill again?

Please.

What are YOUR qualifications?

I'm beginning to think that your some 13 year old keyboard commando who plays call of duty, or some such.

First off, where did I say shotguns and rifles are unwieldy? If I recall, my first comment in this thread was to grab a machine gun.

Your Tac-14 is inherently more difficult to control than a short barreled shotgun. That’s going to make managing recoil and follow up shots even more difficult and iltimately slower.

Yes, stop being stubborn and shoot a bill drill on a timer. Humble yourself...

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

Bangswitch said:
And I think I speak for everyone when I say, I would be surprise if you got two shots off if someone was returning fire.

By the way If you are interested I done a bill drill. Whoops hope no one thinks I’m a badass now.

What was your time?

I’ve shot Bill Drills from low ready with a carbine in 1.3 seconds at 10 yards within a 6* circle.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

Bangswitch said:
And I think I speak for everyone when I say, I would be surprise if you got two shots off if someone was returning fire.

Strange how someone shooting back atcha changes everything, ain't it? :rofl:

First time I was shot at, I was pissed that they weren't using blanks, like we did in training. Took me a split second to figure out I was supposed to shoot back.

Strange, the things that go through your mind in a fight. In the end, training prevailed.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
So your reasoning for choosing an 8 round shotgun with no stock is a rather poorly made choice.

Go ahead and shoot a simple Bill Drill with your shotgun, then shoot it with a rifle. You harp on the ideology that a good hit from a 12g round will end the fight, but you have no clue if you’re able to quickly make a follow up shot when you inevitably miss.

Who mentioned pistols?
Grab a rifle.

You gonna put on high speed ear pro with your high speed pajamas? Because I’ve got tinnitus and I’ve never shot in an entirely enclosed environment without ear pro.

Hell I can barely stand standing at 4:00 without proper ear pro when a rifle is kicking out 5.56.

DBW03 · Feb 13, 2019

DBMJR1 said:
Strange how someone shooting back atcha changes everything, ain't it?

First time I was shot at, I was pissed that they weren't using blanks, like we did in training. Took me a split second to figure out I was supposed to shoot back. Strange, the things that go through your mind in a fight. In the end, training prevailed.

A lot of things have changed since Vietnam. They wouldn’t be shooting back if you were hiding in the shadows like a ninja... isn’t that what you said you do?

Defend the hall!

Bangswitch said:
You gonna put on high speed ear pro with your high speed pajamas? Because I’ve got tinnitus and I’ve never shot in an entirely enclosed environment without ear pro.

Hell I can barely stand standing at 4:00 without proper ear pro when a rifle is kicking out 5.56.

I don’t care about my hearing if I’m protecting my family and have a potential to die.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
First off, where did I say shotguns and rifles are unwieldy? If I recall, my first comment in this thread was to grab a machine gun.

Your Tac-14 is inherently more difficult to control than a short barreled shotgun. That’s going to make managing recoil and follow up shots even more difficult and iltimately slower.

Yes, stop being stubborn and shoot a bill drill on a timer. Humble yourself...

At 25 yards I can place all eight shots into the center of a B-29 target, as fast as I can operate the action.

If you read my posts, you would know that I do acknowledge recoil in a shotgun, and mitigate that issue with my ammo selection.

Recoil is not the determining factor, for me, when using my TAC-14 on how fast I can follow up shots.

Perhaps you should consider some strength training if a shotgun recoils too much for you to use effectively.

Yes, it is slower than my AR.

Please do this for me:

Run your Bill Drill, with your AR, inside your home, without earpro.

Report back to me how effective you think your AR is afterward.

Bangswitch · Feb 13, 2019

DBMJR1 said:
Strange how someone shooting back atcha changes everything, ain't it?

First time I was shot at, I was pissed that they weren't using blanks, like we did in training. Took me a split second to figure out I was supposed to shoot back. Strange, the things that go through your mind in a fight. In the end, training prevailed.

lmao

I’m reminded of the saying, everybody wants to be gangster till gangster $h** starts going down.

I’ve heard a few stories like that. Nick Irving tells a story about is first kill, where pops out the top of his Humvee and drop the mag out of his M4 instead of squeezing the trigger. Now there’s a badass sounds like you are too.

DBMJR1 · Feb 13, 2019

DBW03 said:
A lot of things have changed since Vietnam. They wouldn’t be shooting back if you were hiding in the shadows like a ninja... isn’t that what you said you do?

Defend the hall!

I don’t care about my hearing if I’m protecting my family and have a potential to die.

You obviously have no care for situational awareness either, because without your hearing, you have none.

WHAT ARE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS?

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