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  1. #11
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    He doesnít like long guns either because you may need to carry your kid or dog while engaging an intruder one handed. I donít know about you guys but drawing fire while carrying around a loved one sounds dumb.
    I use to have an empty backpack when my kids were tiny. I would throw them in the backpack therefore leaving both hands free to manipulate my long gun


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  2. #12
    All or nothing

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    Shotguns for home defense

    Shotguns are great home defense. Hard to beat for raw knockdown power and intimidation factor and as others have stated, less worry about wall penetration with the right load. I prefer 4 buck in 12ga or 3 buck in a 20ga for indoors, the 12 gets 000 outdoors. There are other reasons that a shotty is good when you have to shoot someone, but they really shouldnít be discussed here. I donít rely on shotgun only for home defense, but they are a strong option.
    I keep a few handy in my home and one in my shop.



    Last edited by Magdump; February 11th, 2019 at 05:52 PM.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct itóóó
    Bangswitch

  3. #13
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOTOR51 View Post
    I use to have an empty backpack when my kids were tiny. I would throw them in the backpack therefore leaving both hands free to manipulate my long gun


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    I had one of those baby holsters for our oldest. It was great.

  4. #14
    -Administrator-
    Make your own luck

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    I would argue that shotguns are the worst of the AR vs Pistol vs Shotgun debate for a few reasons, though I want to preface it with two thoughts:
    1) Having a weapon is likely better than having no weapon at all in most common, "real" home defense situations.
    2) Training is key. Someone with 10,000 hours of practice with a single shot crossbow will use their tool better for defense than someone with no training and a shotgun. A tool is only as effective as the user. In this case, training is paramount to any and all considerations.

    Why I argue that shotguns are the lesser of the above three options:

    1) Ammo capacity. Most shotguns hold less than 8 rounds. Many hold less than four. Yes, some can certainly be loaded with an excess of 20 rounds, but I will consider that an outlier for now. A good full-sized pistol is pushing 16-22 rounds of ammo and an AR is holding around 30.
    2) Going along with number one is ease of reloading and/or clearing jams. A pistol or a rifle are generally easier to reload under stress than a shotgun. The means of carrying extra ammunition are also considerably easier to transport. 30 AR rounds will be more wieldy in an AR mag than 30 shotgun rounds in whatever method you carry them.

    One and two are important because often bad guys come in pairs or more. Dealing with three intruders who presumably intend harm with only 4 to 8 rounds is risky, in my opinion. Under immense stress, most people, even with advanced training will miss shots. If you miss 3 of your 6 shots in a shotgun, you are down to 3 rounds. If you miss 50% of the shots in your pistol, you have 8 - 11 rounds left, while you have around 15 left in your AR. Additionally, following point number two, dropping a mag and throwing a new one in a pistol or AR is very easy and now you are at capacity of ammo again.

    One single shotgun round, even with buckshot, slugs, or whatever tacticool ammo people get nowadays is not guaranteed to take someone down in one hit unless it hits a few very small key points in the body. Yes, 5 rounds of buckshot creating a mess will be more likely to take someone down than one AR round or one pistol round, but it is absolutely not a guarantee.

    Next up is my third point: Shotguns are generally long, unwieldy, and don't have the most controllable recoil. Maneuvering around corners with a long shotgun may not be as easy as with a short AR or with a pistol. On this same note, the recoil on a shotgun is likely not as easily managed as of with a pistol or an AR. This may make follow-up shots more difficult. Much of this section (#3) can be overcome with training, but there are still inherent limitations such as length that may not be as easily overcome.

    Lastly deals with close quarter combatives. If I am up close with someone, I want them to have a long gun over a pistol. With proper training, it's easier to keep someone who is close to you from pointing a long gun at you over a pistol. This also can be partially mitigated with training, but I argue is still an inherent limitation.


    Ultimately, at the end of the day I think that any of the three options can be great with proper training. Everyone's setup is different and there is certainly not one right answer. For most people, though, a pistol or AR is probably a better option.
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
    --Michael Jordan


    Failing to plan is planning to fail.

  5. #15
    -Administrator-
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Shotguns are great home defense. Hard to beat for raw knockdown power and intimidation factor and as others have stated, less worry about wall penetration with the right load. I prefer 4 buck in 12ga or 3 buck in a 20ga for indoors, the 12 gets 000 outdoors. There are other reasons that a shotty is good when you have to shoot someone, but they really shouldn’t be discussed here. I don’t rely on shotgun only for home defense, but they are a strong option.
    I keep a few handy in my home and one in my shop.

    What is the capacity in the bottom one? Just curious.
    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
    --Michael Jordan


    Failing to plan is planning to fail.

  6. #16
    Marksman

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    Austin, that post makes it sound like you are a member of the spray and pray club, lol. Would you and a couple of your buddies like to challenge my shotgun? Its only a 20 gauge, can't hurt tooo much.

  7. #17
    All or nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinBR View Post
    What is the capacity in the bottom one? Just curious.
    With the OPSol plug it holds 9 short rounds. It’s a standard Mossberg 5+1 otherwise.

    I agree with some of your rationale but I think you sell the shotty a little short for home protection. If I wasn’t worried about anyone but myself, including my neighbors, I might choose one of my AR rifles but nope. I’m strictly pistol and shotgun indoors. And if I had a choice between pistol or pistol caliber AR, I’d go with a pistol. My safe plan does not call for me to be roaming around my house (not to say it would never be necessary)
    But rather sitting tight behind cover with the barrel of a shotgun trained on the path between me and the bad guy. If I do have to move it won’t be to engage but to gain a better vantage point in my house. I shoot a lot and feel very comfortable in my ability with a shotgun and I’m confident in the amount of shock each round can cause and how quickly it can incapacitate a person whereas a 9mm handgun may take a few rounds to take someone out of the fight. But as with any weapon, it’s up to the user to make it work. The variables between each weapon have more to do with the person using it. Can you pie around a corner with a short barreled shotgun? About as easily as a AR I’m pretty sure. But if there’s no absolute need to clear your home your best bet is to stay put. It’s your home. You know where the bad guy is coming from and if you’ve done your job he doesn’t know where you are. If he decides to empty the living room and leave without seeking you or your family out, good deal. Let him or them leave. Let the police worry about them. You won’t have to defend your actions at that point. If you are sitting back in your corner when the bad guy has gone through your home and finally arrived in your space and you dispatch him before he hurts you or your family, you stand a much better chance if you have to defend yourself in court having been backed into the last safe place in your home while the intruder was in relentless pursuit. I’ve heard people say they’ll blast away as soon as the perp breaches the front door. The only way I’m shooting as soon as they enter my home is if it’s through the window to my bedroom. It’s difficult I’m sure, to not want to shoot a person breaking into your home. But it’s in your best interest to plan retreat and survival before shooting. Be of that mentality beforehand so if things go south (for the perp) you appear to the potential DA or judge and jury as the victim who was only defending himself and his family.
    If it was only a matter of choosing a gun....

    So I go with the shotgun for the chance that I can end the threat instantly, before the threat can train on me, the drawn gun. That’s what I grab first. The pistol is secondary. If I’m dressed in something with a waistband and had 2 extra seconds, I may just shove the pistol in there.
    Why a pistol over a pistol caliber AR? Mobility, reaction time, speed and ease of clearing a possible FTF, having a free hand.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct itóóó
    Bangswitch

  8. #18
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    With the OPSol plug it holds 9 short rounds. Itís a standard Mossberg 5+1 otherwise.

    I agree with some of your rationale but I think you sell the shotty a little short for home protection. If I wasnít worried about anyone but myself, including my neighbors, I might choose one of my AR rifles but nope. Iím strictly pistol and shotgun indoors. And if I had a choice between pistol or pistol caliber AR, Iíd go with a pistol. My safe plan does not call for me to be roaming around my house (not to say it would never be necessary)
    But rather sitting tight behind cover with the barrel of a shotgun trained on the path between me and the bad guy. If I do have to move it wonít be to engage but to gain a better vantage point in my house. I shoot a lot and feel very comfortable in my ability with a shotgun and Iím confident in the amount of shock each round can cause and how quickly it can incapacitate a person whereas a 9mm handgun may take a few rounds to take someone out of the fight. But as with any weapon, itís up to the user to make it work. The variables between each weapon have more to do with the person using it. Can you pie around a corner with a short barreled shotgun? About as easily as a AR Iím pretty sure. But if thereís no absolute need to clear your home your best bet is to stay put. Itís your home. You know where the bad guy is coming from and if youíve done your job he doesnít know where you are. If he decides to empty the living room and leave without seeking you or your family out, good deal. Let him or them leave. Let the police worry about them. You wonít have to defend your actions at that point. If you are sitting back in your corner when the bad guy has gone through your home and finally arrived in your space and you dispatch him before he hurts you or your family, you stand a much better chance if you have to defend yourself in court having been backed into the last safe place in your home while the intruder was in relentless pursuit. Iíve heard people say theyíll blast away as soon as the perp breaches the front door. The only way Iím shooting as soon as they enter my home is if itís through the window to my bedroom. Itís difficult Iím sure, to not want to shoot a person breaking into your home. But itís in your best interest to plan retreat and survival before shooting. Be of that mentality beforehand so if things go south (for the perp) you appear to the potential DA or judge and jury as the victim who was only defending himself and his family.
    If it was only a matter of choosing a gun....

    So I go with the shotgun for the chance that I can end the threat instantly, before the threat can train on me, the drawn gun. Thatís what I grab first. The pistol is secondary. If Iím dressed in something with a waistband and had 2 extra seconds, I may just shove the pistol in there.
    Why a pistol over a pistol caliber AR? Mobility, reaction time, speed and ease of clearing a possible FTF, having a free hand.
    What round will you be using with your shotgun? For what itís worth Iíve seen a lot of shootings on humans and Iíll take a rifle over a shotgun any day of the week. If you are going to stay in one location in your house and set up an ambush why not make your fields of fire in a direction where over penetration is not a factor?


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  9. #19
    -Administrator-
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    All of the above also is contingent on you being at or near the ideal barricaded position at the time of the home invasion.

    If you're cooking in your kitchen or watching football in your living room, do you have a long gun handy like you can a pistol (on your person)?

    I mean if I am preparing to barricade myself in a room, that completely changes the dynamics of what system is appropriate.

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    -- Austin

    "There is no "i" in team but there is in win. "
    --Michael Jordan


    Failing to plan is planning to fail.

  10. #20
    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom

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    I wonder how many of y'all have fired an AR in a combat situation, without hearing protection.


    I'm mostly deaf, and I wasn't inside.

    I'm not complaining. It get's me out of listening to my wife's rambling stories.

    Go ahead. Choose that AR for defensive purposes indoors. Just be sure to sleep with your earpro in/on.

    It'd be a much better option suppressed.



    I will agree that rifle wounds are devastating. There is plenty of AR ammo available that does a good job of mitigating the problem of over penetration. That 'green tip' in your mag ain't one of them.
    "Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy."
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