Shotguns for home defense

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  • Suburbazine

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    Ok, now that I've drawn you in with the generic title and open premise, I'm going to ruin your fun by subjecting you a very limiting premise:

    While most everyone "on the internet" says shotguns are hands down the best home defense weapon, how much advantage does a shotgun have over any other weapon when it comes to controlling penetration of interior walls and not hitting people you don't want to hit?

    Then take this further and pretend you're arguing with a fellow about why firing a shotgun at a target they feel they can't hit with any other weapon besides a shotgun because it's "too close/dark/dynamic and they might miss".

    No dragging any self respecting self defense professionals into this argument without first qualifying these premises.

    After it gets hashed out or supportively referenced to death I will be presenting the entire thread to whom I argue with, regardless of whether the results support my view or not.
     
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    Request Dust Off

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    If you actually pattern a shotgun the answer becomes more apparent.
    Also "Box O Truth" has some test they did on penetration.
    Then there is the whole Shotgun shell out of a pistol thing.

    Bottom line for me is I will do what I think is best in a given situation. If anyone thinks there are absolutes about what will, can or can't happen, there are some anomalies that do occur.

    In closing, for the most part, it is pretty well done to death and I doubt any thing new will be presented. A lot of rehash is due to some are just visiting a topic for the first time. Kudos to them for thinking, researching and discussing. I am interested in seeing what you have come up with.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Load veriaty and patterning ability outside of twenty yards is why shotguns are good tools. So theoretically wall and door penetrations can be adjusted to your preference (either commercially or hand-loads). If you’ve ever considered turkey hunting you know the right choke can help remove a turkeys head from its body at nearly 100 yards (not likely with me as the shotgunner). Or you could take a rifled slug barrel chop it off and load it with shot to truly *spray and pray*.

    Seems like a lot of effort to me when you could just learn to be proficient with a 9mm pistol inside of 20 yards. Over-penetration is over-blown. If someone you don’t want to shoot is directly behind the person you want to shoot, don’t shoot.
     

    DBMJR1

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    I'll preface my answer with this:
    I rely on a Rem Tac 14 for home defense. It is loaded with one Rem Managed Recoil OO buck in the chamber, and seven Aguila Mini shells (mixed buck shot) in the tube.

    First let's address 'not penetrating drywall'. Anything that won't go through both sides of an interior wall is useless for self defense, in my opinion. If you are relying on bird shot for self defense, you are fooling yourself. All of the ammunition loaded in my firearm will penetrate several interior walls.

    Shot pattern. I'm not sure what kind of mansions some people live in, but in my 2K ft/sq ranch style home, a long shot would be down the hallway. About twenty-five feet, at most. At that distance the pattern of OO buck is going to be about the size of a golf ball. Without aiming, you most certainly CAN miss.

    Now: Why I choose a shotgun for home defense.

    Eight .33 caliber projectiles traveling at 1200 feet/second will make a mess that will require Clean Scene to clean up. When the object is to stop the threat, the more of the bad guy's insides that I splatter on the walls, the quicker I'll convince him to quit the fight.

    Plain and simple. Nothing tops a shotgun for home defense, IMHO, but not for the reasons most people espouse.
     

    Danny Abear

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    BPI makes a 'spreader wad' which the internal is shaped like a +, making 4 separate colums of shot, i've got some on order, and will see how the perform. Oh, sh#t, I forgot about that Masad Aybob thing about reloaded ammo, guess i'll use them to shoot armadillos
     

    Bangswitch

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    BPI makes a 'spreader wad' which the internal is shaped like a +, making 4 separate colums of shot, i've got some on order, and will see how the perform. Oh, sh#t, I forgot about that Masad Aybob thing about reloaded ammo, guess i'll use them to shoot armadillos

    He doesn’t like long guns either because you may need to carry your kid or dog while engaging an intruder one handed. I don’t know about you guys but drawing fire while carrying around a loved one sounds dumb.
     

    machinedrummer

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    A 90 pound guided missile with huge teeth and a hunger for tearing up intruders. That should keep the bad guy busy while you stand in front of the open safe and ponder that age old question. Hmmm...eenie meenie miney....
     

    340six

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    Listen to Uncle Joe it is all ya need just a few blast off the balcony will scare them. Off.
    Just may be El President in 2020
     
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    thperez1972

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    I have a gun free zone sign out front so the bad guys know to leave the guns in the car when they break in.

    He doesn’t like long guns either because you may need to carry your kid or dog while engaging an intruder one handed. I don’t know about you guys but drawing fire while carrying around a loved one sounds dumb.

    As far as I know, I don't have kids of my own. So I should be good with a long gun.
     

    MOTOR51

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    He doesn’t like long guns either because you may need to carry your kid or dog while engaging an intruder one handed. I don’t know about you guys but drawing fire while carrying around a loved one sounds dumb.

    I use to have an empty backpack when my kids were tiny. I would throw them in the backpack therefore leaving both hands free to manipulate my long gun


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    Magdump

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    Shotguns are great home defense. Hard to beat for raw knockdown power and intimidation factor and as others have stated, less worry about wall penetration with the right load. I prefer 4 buck in 12ga or 3 buck in a 20ga for indoors, the 12 gets 000 outdoors. There are other reasons that a shotty is good when you have to shoot someone, but they really shouldn’t be discussed here. I don’t rely on shotgun only for home defense, but they are a strong option.
    I keep a few handy in my home and one in my shop.

    a9d33870c7b844b8d1549e7808725c93.jpg

    466fd5f8bd998e977044f4d4e8a25313.jpg

    a88475c06df8fb563af2c2b8d0871bd8.jpg
     
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    AustinBR

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    I would argue that shotguns are the worst of the AR vs Pistol vs Shotgun debate for a few reasons, though I want to preface it with two thoughts:
    1) Having a weapon is likely better than having no weapon at all in most common, "real" home defense situations.
    2) Training is key. Someone with 10,000 hours of practice with a single shot crossbow will use their tool better for defense than someone with no training and a shotgun. A tool is only as effective as the user. In this case, training is paramount to any and all considerations.

    Why I argue that shotguns are the lesser of the above three options:

    1) Ammo capacity. Most shotguns hold less than 8 rounds. Many hold less than four. Yes, some can certainly be loaded with an excess of 20 rounds, but I will consider that an outlier for now. A good full-sized pistol is pushing 16-22 rounds of ammo and an AR is holding around 30.
    2) Going along with number one is ease of reloading and/or clearing jams. A pistol or a rifle are generally easier to reload under stress than a shotgun. The means of carrying extra ammunition are also considerably easier to transport. 30 AR rounds will be more wieldy in an AR mag than 30 shotgun rounds in whatever method you carry them.

    One and two are important because often bad guys come in pairs or more. Dealing with three intruders who presumably intend harm with only 4 to 8 rounds is risky, in my opinion. Under immense stress, most people, even with advanced training will miss shots. If you miss 3 of your 6 shots in a shotgun, you are down to 3 rounds. If you miss 50% of the shots in your pistol, you have 8 - 11 rounds left, while you have around 15 left in your AR. Additionally, following point number two, dropping a mag and throwing a new one in a pistol or AR is very easy and now you are at capacity of ammo again.

    One single shotgun round, even with buckshot, slugs, or whatever tacticool ammo people get nowadays is not guaranteed to take someone down in one hit unless it hits a few very small key points in the body. Yes, 5 rounds of buckshot creating a mess will be more likely to take someone down than one AR round or one pistol round, but it is absolutely not a guarantee.

    Next up is my third point: Shotguns are generally long, unwieldy, and don't have the most controllable recoil. Maneuvering around corners with a long shotgun may not be as easy as with a short AR or with a pistol. On this same note, the recoil on a shotgun is likely not as easily managed as of with a pistol or an AR. This may make follow-up shots more difficult. Much of this section (#3) can be overcome with training, but there are still inherent limitations such as length that may not be as easily overcome.

    Lastly deals with close quarter combatives. If I am up close with someone, I want them to have a long gun over a pistol. With proper training, it's easier to keep someone who is close to you from pointing a long gun at you over a pistol. This also can be partially mitigated with training, but I argue is still an inherent limitation.


    Ultimately, at the end of the day I think that any of the three options can be great with proper training. Everyone's setup is different and there is certainly not one right answer. For most people, though, a pistol or AR is probably a better option.
     

    AustinBR

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    Shotguns are great home defense. Hard to beat for raw knockdown power and intimidation factor and as others have stated, less worry about wall penetration with the right load. I prefer 4 buck in 12ga or 3 buck in a 20ga for indoors, the 12 gets 000 outdoors. There are other reasons that a shotty is good when you have to shoot someone, but they really shouldn’t be discussed here. I don’t rely on shotgun only for home defense, but they are a strong option.
    I keep a few handy in my home and one in my shop.

    a88475c06df8fb563af2c2b8d0871bd8.jpg

    What is the capacity in the bottom one? Just curious.
     

    Danny Abear

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    Austin, that post makes it sound like you are a member of the spray and pray club, lol. Would you and a couple of your buddies like to challenge my shotgun? Its only a 20 gauge, can't hurt tooo much.
     

    Magdump

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    What is the capacity in the bottom one? Just curious.
    With the OPSol plug it holds 9 short rounds. It’s a standard Mossberg 5+1 otherwise.

    I agree with some of your rationale but I think you sell the shotty a little short for home protection. If I wasn’t worried about anyone but myself, including my neighbors, I might choose one of my AR rifles but nope. I’m strictly pistol and shotgun indoors. And if I had a choice between pistol or pistol caliber AR, I’d go with a pistol. My safe plan does not call for me to be roaming around my house (not to say it would never be necessary)
    But rather sitting tight behind cover with the barrel of a shotgun trained on the path between me and the bad guy. If I do have to move it won’t be to engage but to gain a better vantage point in my house. I shoot a lot and feel very comfortable in my ability with a shotgun and I’m confident in the amount of shock each round can cause and how quickly it can incapacitate a person whereas a 9mm handgun may take a few rounds to take someone out of the fight. But as with any weapon, it’s up to the user to make it work. The variables between each weapon have more to do with the person using it. Can you pie around a corner with a short barreled shotgun? About as easily as a AR I’m pretty sure. But if there’s no absolute need to clear your home your best bet is to stay put. It’s your home. You know where the bad guy is coming from and if you’ve done your job he doesn’t know where you are. If he decides to empty the living room and leave without seeking you or your family out, good deal. Let him or them leave. Let the police worry about them. You won’t have to defend your actions at that point. If you are sitting back in your corner when the bad guy has gone through your home and finally arrived in your space and you dispatch him before he hurts you or your family, you stand a much better chance if you have to defend yourself in court having been backed into the last safe place in your home while the intruder was in relentless pursuit. I’ve heard people say they’ll blast away as soon as the perp breaches the front door. The only way I’m shooting as soon as they enter my home is if it’s through the window to my bedroom. It’s difficult I’m sure, to not want to shoot a person breaking into your home. But it’s in your best interest to plan retreat and survival before shooting. Be of that mentality beforehand so if things go south (for the perp) you appear to the potential DA or judge and jury as the victim who was only defending himself and his family.
    If it was only a matter of choosing a gun....

    So I go with the shotgun for the chance that I can end the threat instantly, before the threat can train on me, the drawn gun. That’s what I grab first. The pistol is secondary. If I’m dressed in something with a waistband and had 2 extra seconds, I may just shove the pistol in there.
    Why a pistol over a pistol caliber AR? Mobility, reaction time, speed and ease of clearing a possible FTF, having a free hand.
     

    MOTOR51

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    With the OPSol plug it holds 9 short rounds. It’s a standard Mossberg 5+1 otherwise.

    I agree with some of your rationale but I think you sell the shotty a little short for home protection. If I wasn’t worried about anyone but myself, including my neighbors, I might choose one of my AR rifles but nope. I’m strictly pistol and shotgun indoors. And if I had a choice between pistol or pistol caliber AR, I’d go with a pistol. My safe plan does not call for me to be roaming around my house (not to say it would never be necessary)
    But rather sitting tight behind cover with the barrel of a shotgun trained on the path between me and the bad guy. If I do have to move it won’t be to engage but to gain a better vantage point in my house. I shoot a lot and feel very comfortable in my ability with a shotgun and I’m confident in the amount of shock each round can cause and how quickly it can incapacitate a person whereas a 9mm handgun may take a few rounds to take someone out of the fight. But as with any weapon, it’s up to the user to make it work. The variables between each weapon have more to do with the person using it. Can you pie around a corner with a short barreled shotgun? About as easily as a AR I’m pretty sure. But if there’s no absolute need to clear your home your best bet is to stay put. It’s your home. You know where the bad guy is coming from and if you’ve done your job he doesn’t know where you are. If he decides to empty the living room and leave without seeking you or your family out, good deal. Let him or them leave. Let the police worry about them. You won’t have to defend your actions at that point. If you are sitting back in your corner when the bad guy has gone through your home and finally arrived in your space and you dispatch him before he hurts you or your family, you stand a much better chance if you have to defend yourself in court having been backed into the last safe place in your home while the intruder was in relentless pursuit. I’ve heard people say they’ll blast away as soon as the perp breaches the front door. The only way I’m shooting as soon as they enter my home is if it’s through the window to my bedroom. It’s difficult I’m sure, to not want to shoot a person breaking into your home. But it’s in your best interest to plan retreat and survival before shooting. Be of that mentality beforehand so if things go south (for the perp) you appear to the potential DA or judge and jury as the victim who was only defending himself and his family.
    If it was only a matter of choosing a gun....

    So I go with the shotgun for the chance that I can end the threat instantly, before the threat can train on me, the drawn gun. That’s what I grab first. The pistol is secondary. If I’m dressed in something with a waistband and had 2 extra seconds, I may just shove the pistol in there.
    Why a pistol over a pistol caliber AR? Mobility, reaction time, speed and ease of clearing a possible FTF, having a free hand.

    What round will you be using with your shotgun? For what it’s worth I’ve seen a lot of shootings on humans and I’ll take a rifle over a shotgun any day of the week. If you are going to stay in one location in your house and set up an ambush why not make your fields of fire in a direction where over penetration is not a factor?


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    AustinBR

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    All of the above also is contingent on you being at or near the ideal barricaded position at the time of the home invasion.

    If you're cooking in your kitchen or watching football in your living room, do you have a long gun handy like you can a pistol (on your person)?

    I mean if I am preparing to barricade myself in a room, that completely changes the dynamics of what system is appropriate.

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    DBMJR1

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    I wonder how many of y'all have fired an AR in a combat situation, without hearing protection.


    I'm mostly deaf, and I wasn't inside.

    I'm not complaining. It get's me out of listening to my wife's rambling stories.

    Go ahead. Choose that AR for defensive purposes indoors. Just be sure to sleep with your earpro in/on.

    It'd be a much better option suppressed.



    I will agree that rifle wounds are devastating. There is plenty of AR ammo available that does a good job of mitigating the problem of over penetration. That 'green tip' in your mag ain't one of them.
     

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