Morning Coffee Question

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  • Kuffaar

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    Jan 13, 2019
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    Good Morning I guess you could call it a legal question. I would like to ask how are serial numbers tracked?
    For example if we purchased a used firearm from someone we get personal info DL # etc.
    If a firearm is stolen the serial number is reported to the local PD.
    Should we keep a log of serial numbers of past and present? Or just current?

    The reason I ask is I have a friend she had a pistol stolen a few weeks back. The kid then sold it. And now she is hoping to find it again.
    Now with that being said. She did report it stolen and did her part with the. But if the firearm was used in a crime how would that serial number be tracked back to her? Is that state of fed level?



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    Bangswitch

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    I’m not qualified to answer the question in its entirety, hopefully someone will pick up where I fall short.

    To the best of my knowledge there is no omnibus database of serial numbers. If a gun is used in a crime I believe the serial number is traced to the manufacturer/importer/etc, then the FFL, then possibly the original buyer.

    When an FFL closes the BATFE takes over those records but to my understanding there is a law that prohibits the BATFE from putting all the records into a database. And if I know the federal government like I think I do, there is little hope for connecting the dots, once they take control of the files.

    Someone who knows this better pick me up where I fell down.
     

    thperez1972

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    I’m not qualified to answer the question in its entirety, hopefully someone will pick up where I fall short.

    To the best of my knowledge there is no omnibus database of serial numbers. If a gun is used in a crime I believe the serial number is traced to the manufacturer/importer/etc, then the FFL, then possibly the original buyer.

    When an FFL closes the BATFE takes over those records but to my understanding there is a law that prohibits the BATFE from putting all the records into a database. And if I know the federal government like I think I do, there is little hope for connecting the dots, once they take control of the files.

    Someone who knows this better pick me up where I fell down.

    As I understand the process, if a FFL closes and sends the files to the Feds, they can scan the files for archiving but they cannot scan them in a searchable format because of the no database law. In the files would be their firearms log. So, in theory, if the weapon was tracked from the manufacturer to a closed FFL, the original log could be found in the boxes in some big warehouse that is hopefully organized. The manufacturer would have the transfer date and the weapon should be able to be located in the log. The log should have the date and to whom it was transferred out.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    Apr 7, 2018
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    They can and do track it back to the original purchaser if they want to . True story , Sister in law purchased a 9mm Berretta from a sporting goods in S'PORT , for my brothers birthday in early 90s. I traded him out of it late 90s . Fall 2001 it was stolen from my vehicle , idiot me did not have the serial number , Sporting goods were out of business so called ATF they said no way to get information. 2002 brother called and said Wichita Kansas police called his ,at that time ,ex wife and said a gun she purchased had been used in a crime , she gave my brothers name who gave my name . The first detective was very insistent I come to Wichita and give a statement and said since I had not reported the gun stolen I could be charged as an accomplice for letting a felon have a gun . Our sheriff sent a report of the theft showing serial number not known and that appeased them . 2004 a nice detective from Wichita contacted me and arranged to send my pistol to our sheriff for me to pick up . Other than a case number engraved on the mag and under the grip it was in perfect shape . How did Wichita police trace it back to the original purchaser. The pistol had not been registered or in LEO contact since purchase . The only way it could be traced was through the ATF or the sporting goods store sent purchaser information to Berretta and the Wichita police contacted them . No warranty slip or information was sent to Berretta by my brother . I have pictures and serial numbers of all firearms now .

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    Bangswitch

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    They can and do track it back to the original purchaser if they want to . True story , Sister in law purchased a 9mm Berretta from a sporting goods in S'PORT , for my brothers birthday in early 90s. I traded him out of it late 90s . Fall 2001 it was stolen from my vehicle , idiot me did not have the serial number , Sporting goods were out of business so called ATF they said no way to get information. 2002 brother called and said Wichita Kansas police called his ,at that time ,ex wife and said a gun she purchased had been used in a crime , she gave my brothers name who gave my name . The first detective was very insistent I come to Wichita and give a statement and said since I had not reported the gun stolen I could be charged as an accomplice for letting a felon have a gun . Our sheriff sent a report of the theft showing serial number not known and that appeased them . 2004 a nice detective from Wichita contacted me and arranged to send my pistol to our sheriff for me to pick up . Other than a case number engraved on the mag and under the grip it was in perfect shape . How did Wichita police trace it back to the original purchaser. The pistol had not been registered or in LEO contact since purchase . The only way it could be traced was through the ATF or the sporting goods store sent purchaser information to Berretta and the Wichita police contacted them . No warranty slip or information was sent to Berretta by my brother . I have pictures and serial numbers of all firearms now .

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    When the sporting goods store closed they sent their files to the ATF who kept it. And when the Whitcha police called the ATF, the ATF traced it from the manufacturer to the old sporting goods store files and found your sister-in-laws info. The by law the ATF can’t develop a searchable database, but they still keep the logs. Some are just easier to search through. It gets complicated by how the FFL handled their logs. Hand written stuff can be pretty hard to digitize and make searchable. Sometimes even printed stuff gets hard to work with when the original document is in bad shape. The more I think about it I imagine the ATF has a pretty high end ORC software, but it’s still the government so it’s as good as the employees they have sifting through the paperwork.
     

    Kuffaar

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    Jan 13, 2019
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    Thank you for your responses. This clears up a lot of questions. So I’m guessing the same reason the keep bringing up 80% lowers is because the atf can’t track it back to a FFL


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    ozarkpugs

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    Apr 7, 2018
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    When the sporting goods store closed they sent their files to the ATF who kept it. And when the Whitcha police called the ATF, the ATF traced it from the manufacturer to the old sporting goods store files and found your sister-in-laws info. The by law the ATF can’t develop a searchable database, but they still keep the logs. Some are just easier to search through. It gets complicated by how the FFL handled their logs. Hand written stuff can be pretty hard to digitize and make searchable. Sometimes even printed stuff gets hard to work with when the original document is in bad shape. The more I think about it I imagine the ATF has a pretty high end ORC software, but it’s still the government so it’s as good as the employees they have sifting through the paperwork.
    I'm not an anti government , conspiracy theory Person but I think we would be surprised how many guns they can trace by serial number . We are trusting them not to create a database like the Indians trusted them to keep treaties . As far as keeping information for gun confiscation ,I don't think that is the plan and if it is it's not a workable plan IMHO.

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    jsg34

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    This is a simple question and it doesn't involve a firearms database per se. When she reported the gun stolen, she gave her name and information to the police. When they entered the stolen gun into NCIC, they included her information. When it's recovered and run through NCIC, Bingo! Her name and contact info will pop up. Of course, she won't be able to get the gun until the case is adjudicated.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    Apr 7, 2018
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    I kinda got Lost on this one , what she reported a gun stolen ?
    This is a simple question and it doesn't involve a firearms database per se. When she reported the gun stolen, she gave her name and information to the police. When they entered the stolen gun into NCIC, they included her information. When it's recovered and run through NCIC, Bingo! Her name and contact info will pop up. Of course, she won't be able to get the gun until the case is adjudicated.

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    jkingrph

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    If its stolen then your best,fastest bet is to keep a personal log book,Cuts out a lot of legwork for the police,Your better off getting a stolen firearm report and then cruising the pawnshops yourself.
    Oh yeah and pictures are a huge plus!


    I had one of the big Para Ordnance P14-45 pistols stolen a couple of years ago. Someone broke into my truck and got it. I reported it to the local sheriffs dept. The deputy responding was happy that I had a record of serial and model numbers, and said that most folks did not keep such info. I started doing that after getting a C&R license about 15 years ago where it is required for C&R arms purchased or sold. It got me thinking and I got separate bound books for my non C&R arms also.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    I had one of the big Para Ordnance P14-45 pistols stolen a couple of years ago. Someone broke into my truck and got it. I reported it to the local sheriffs dept. The deputy responding was happy that I had a record of serial and model numbers, and said that most folks did not keep such info. I started doing that after getting a C&R license about 15 years ago where it is required for C&R arms purchased or sold. It got me thinking and I got separate bound books for my non C&R arms also.

    Good deal and a smart move.

    I'd like to nominate you for a participation award...9...posts since 2007, Man that's some kind of a record!!!
     

    thperez1972

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    Buds Gun Shop has an app for the iPhone called GunsDB. It doesn't cover every situation but it's free. You can log basic info and pictures of the weapons and accessories. There are complaints the lists, like gun manufacturers and calibers, are limited to recent and common ones and there is no way to add to them or to create custom fields. But it looks like it would be good for entering and storing the basic data about your collection.
     

    theArAkguy

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    The best thing to do when buying through private sales is to ask for the serial number ahead of time. If they have nothing to hide, they’ll tell you. You can call local pd and give them the number and they can tell you if it’s stolen.

    As as far as your stolen gun goes, it’s a process.
    If it’s reported stolen and recovered, the atf first goes to the manufacturer, then they go to the distributor if there is one, then they send in a trace request to the gun store where the gun was dispositioned in. I receive the request and send the atf a copy of the last known purchasers 4473. From there, it’s out of my hands. I imagine the last known owner gets a call or visit from the atf or local pd.

    Hopefully the the original owner has a bill of sale to show it’s out of your hands. It just makes things easier. Not required though. You can still tell them to **** off and that you sold it privately. But I wouldn’t.
     

    rdass623

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    you should keep track of the serial numbers of all of the firearms which you own. as far as tracking of the serial number, whenever it is transferred through a ffl holder, the ATF tracks who the firearm was transferred to. if a firearm is stolen and reported to the police, it is incumbent upon you to provide the police with the serial number so it can be listed in the national crime information center (NCIC). when used in a crime and recovered by the police, an ATF trace report is run which tracks the legal transfers through FFL holders to purchasers. once the case where the gun was used in a crime is closed either through conviction, dismissal, etc., usually an attempt is made to contact the last legal owner to return the gun (depending on jurisdiction).
     

    gwpercle

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    Keep a detailed description , all markings and identifying features , along with the serial # and several color photo's , showing all custom grips, plating or modifications of every firearm you own.
    It's the only way you can prove ownership and if you need to make an insurance claim they want proof you owned the gun before they will pay.

    I had serial number recorded , written description and photo's of a gun stolen in 1995.
    In 2015 the gun was recovered in a Kingman Arizona Pawn shop and returned to me after a 20 year absence..all that info helped . The photo's showed the custom grips and custom metal work done . The officer had the file with all the photo's and said they proved I was the owner beyond any doubt .

    Gary
     
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    buttanic

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    Just take a picture of every gun you have with the serial number visible and written note of when and where you acquired it and keep them on a flash drive.
     

    dantheman

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    I'm old school . I ordered one of those blue and white " Bound books " like the gun shops used . Everything is logged in and out as the case may be . I even logged my son's firearms so there would be a record of the serial numbers for insurance purposes . He kept procrastinating so I did it for him .
     

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