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  1. #21
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMJR1 View Post
    I disagree, that it would be a difficult shot. If I were on an isle, and he was headed directly for me, it's an easy shot. He's canalized in the isle, and I only have to concern myself with placing the shot. He can't swerve, or dodge. Close your eyes and picture someone coming at you in a store isle. The target is just getting larger.

    If he were headed at me, I'd consider it a lethal threat, just as a cop would consider it a lethal threat if someone drove a car at him/her.

    I'd pop the guy in the chest a couple of times, then worry about getting out of the way of the motorcycle.

    The exception would be if there were others around me that might get hurt by the motorcycle after the guy looses control.

    If that were the case, I'd try to get them out of the center of the isle, and shield them.

    But if I'm alone in the isle, . . . pop, pop.
    Lol, ok. I canít ever recall an officer shooting someone on a motorcycle in my 20+ years of experience. Not saying it hasnít happened but comparing this scenario to an LEO in a pursuit or trying to arrest someone is not gonna work.


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  2. #22
    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOTOR51 View Post
    Lol, ok. I can’t ever recall an officer shooting someone on a motorcycle in my 20+ years of experience. Not saying it hasn’t happened but comparing this scenario to an LEO in a pursuit or trying to arrest someone is not gonna work.


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    Nowhere in my post did I compare this scenario to one of an LEO in pursuit, or attempting to make an arrest.

    What I did state, is that I would consider someone driving a motorcycle at me to be a justifiable use of deadly force. I would imagine that several hundreds of pounds of motorcycle, traveling at a high rate of speed, would cause me grievous bodily harm, or death, on impact with my old, gimpy body.

    There might have been a day when I thought
    a motorcycle would just bounce off of me, or that I could have the reactions to hit a kill switch, or some such. Those days are past. I'm old. I'm gimpy, and I'm not going to let some yahoo on a motorcycle make my wife a widow.
    "Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy."
    Benjamin Franklin

  3. #23
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMJR1 View Post
    I disagree, that it would be a difficult shot. If I were on an isle, and he was headed directly for me, it's an easy shot. He's canalized in the isle, and I only have to concern myself with placing the shot. He can't swerve, or dodge. Close your eyes and picture someone coming at you in a store isle. The target is just getting larger.

    If he were headed at me, I'd consider it a lethal threat, just as a cop would consider it a lethal threat if someone drove a car at him/her.

    I'd pop the guy in the chest a couple of times, then worry about getting out of the way of the motorcycle.

    The exception would be if there were others around me that might get hurt by the motorcycle after the guy looses control.

    If that were the case, I'd try to get them out of the center of the isle, and shield them.

    But if I'm alone in the isle, . . . pop, pop.
    A number of agencies frown upon shooting the driver of a moving vehicle unless absolutely necessary. And it would difficult for a civilian to argue lethal threat from a moving vehicle when they knowingly place themselves in front of the vehicle for the purpose of labeling the moving vehicle a lethal threat.

  4. #24
    Marksman

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    Anyone else long for the days where this was a Walmart story that made the news?


  5. #25
    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    A number of agencies frown upon shooting the driver of a moving vehicle unless absolutely necessary. And it would difficult for a civilian to argue lethal threat from a moving vehicle when they knowingly place themselves in front of the vehicle for the purpose of labeling the moving vehicle a lethal threat.
    Please explain how moving vehicles are not lethal to civilians, but they are to officers.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/20/u...f-defense.html

    As for 'knowingly placing' myself in front of a moving vehicle. If I am in a grocery store isle, with a moving vehicle coming at me, with my mobility related disability, how am I expected to get out of it's way? Do I even have a duty to attempt to get out of it's way?

    An isle in Sprawl Mart is, what, 8-10 feet wide? I'm like two feet wide. A motorcycle is, what, about three feet wide? Assuming I'm on one side, or the other, with nobody else in the isle, Two plus three is five, from eight feet wide, leaves a margin of error of three feet he can miss me by. Now, I've got to assume, that if he is riding a motorcycle INSIDE of a Sprawl-Mart, he's probably high on something.
    Can I, reasonably expect an impaired driver, traveling at a high rate of speed, on a waxed floor, to miss me entirely?
    Would you?
    "Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy."
    Benjamin Franklin

  6. #26
    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    Anyone else long for the days where this was a Walmart story that made the news?

    Now it's this:

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/chaos-wal...og-steals-food

    There was a day when stories from Sprawl-Mart were like this:
    https://youtu.be/dsq_jZiB1_U
    Last edited by DBMJR1; April 17th, 2019 at 12:04 PM.
    "Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy."
    Benjamin Franklin

  7. #27
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMJR1 View Post
    Please explain how moving vehicles are not lethal to civilians, but they are to officers.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/20/u...f-defense.html

    As for 'knowingly placing' myself in front of a moving vehicle. If I am in a grocery store isle, with a moving vehicle coming at me, with my mobility related disability, how am I expected to get out of it's way? Do I even have a duty to attempt to get out of it's way?

    An isle in Sprawl Mart is, what, 8-10 feet wide? I'm like two feet wide. A motorcycle is, what, about three feet wide? Assuming I'm on one side, or the other, with nobody else in the isle, Two plus three is five, from eight feet wide, leaves a margin of error of three feet he can miss me by. Now, I've got to assume, that if he is riding a motorcycle INSIDE of a Sprawl-Mart, he's probably high on something.
    Can I, reasonably expect an impaired driver, traveling at a high rate of speed, on a waxed floor, to miss me entirely?
    Would you?
    I quickly looked through the article and found too few details to make a comparison to this situation. And a big difference between a civilian and an officer is the officer has arrest powers. So in the performance of his duties, he may have to place himself in a position that a civilian would reasonably not place himself in.

    As an officer, I have been trained to move out of the way if possible. The only time I'm trained to shoot the driver of a moving car is if I cannot move out of the way or if it's reasonable to believe not shooting the driver would create a more dangerous situation than shooting him would. Not a potentially dangerous situation. An actual dangerous situation. Shooting the driver does not immediately stop the vehicle.

    Yes, you can expect the motorcycle to miss you. A vehicle travels along one axis. He can turn but only so fast. On foot, you are able to move on an axis perpendicular to the direction of the moving vehicle. The time it would take for you to draw, get a good enough sight picture, and shoot is enough time for you to move to side and out of the aisle. If there's not enough time for you to move out of the way, it's doubtful you would have time to see the threat, recognize it as a threat, react to the threat by drawing a concealed weapon, get a good sight picture while considering anyone behind the threat, and placing a well placed shot. And even if you are able to do that. You have now turned a 700 pound object traveling along a predictable path into a 700 pound object traveling along an unpredictable path, increasing the likelihood you will be hit

  8. #28
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    I quickly looked through the article and found too few details to make a comparison to this situation. And a big difference between a civilian and an officer is the officer has arrest powers. So in the performance of his duties, he may have to place himself in a position that a civilian would reasonably not place himself in.

    As an officer, I have been trained to move out of the way if possible. The only time I'm trained to shoot the driver of a moving car is if I cannot move out of the way or if it's reasonable to believe not shooting the driver would create a more dangerous situation than shooting him would. Not a potentially dangerous situation. An actual dangerous situation. Shooting the driver does not immediately stop the vehicle.

    Yes, you can expect the motorcycle to miss you. A vehicle travels along one axis. He can turn but only so fast. On foot, you are able to move on an axis perpendicular to the direction of the moving vehicle. The time it would take for you to draw, get a good enough sight picture, and shoot is enough time for you to move to side and out of the aisle. If there's not enough time for you to move out of the way, it's doubtful you would have time to see the threat, recognize it as a threat, react to the threat by drawing a concealed weapon, get a good sight picture while considering anyone behind the threat, and placing a well placed shot. And even if you are able to do that. You have now turned a 700 pound object traveling along a predictable path into a 700 pound object traveling along an unpredictable path, increasing the likelihood you will be hit
    Heís not going to get it. Itís apparently hard for him to differentiate the responsibilities of a LEO vs the responsibility of a civilian with a firearm. He will only learn when he is in court being grilled by an attorney.


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  9. #29
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMJR1 View Post
    Nowhere in my post did I compare this scenario to one of an LEO in pursuit, or attempting to make an arrest.

    What I did state, is that I would consider someone driving a motorcycle at me to be a justifiable use of deadly force. I would imagine that several hundreds of pounds of motorcycle, traveling at a high rate of speed, would cause me grievous bodily harm, or death, on impact with my old, gimpy body.

    There might have been a day when I thought
    a motorcycle would just bounce off of me, or that I could have the reactions to hit a kill switch, or some such. Those days are past. I'm old. I'm gimpy, and I'm not going to let some yahoo on a motorcycle make my wife a widow.


    If that wasnít your intention then I might ask why introduce a LEO into the discussion?



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  10. #30
    Marksman

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    Double yellow lines throughout the store would solve anyone being hit. Traffic lights, stop signs, yield, one way...etc. maybe some Check points.
    Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who don't.

    Tim

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