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  1. #81
    Marksman

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    The ATF trace center has many many 40' C-cans outside their building full of records yet to be micro filmed, much less put into an electronic database. From my understanding they micro film all the documents sent into them. Assuming the article I read on the Trace center, and how they work is true, and correct. they cannot make a searchable electronic database. Whether that database exists or not depends on your level of trust for, and belief of government conspiracy. According to the article I read, they convert the paper 4473, to micro film to save space, an that isn't happening at an alarming rate, because there are only about 5 or 6 people working at the trace center. In my experience with gun traces through the business, I have only ever spoken to one of three women over 10+ years, so I can believe that there is a small workforce there.
    Last edited by Troedoff; July 11th, 2019 at 12:29 PM.

  2. #82
    Marksman

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    Back in the 80's a relative had an FFL mainly for his own benefit but he did sell a few guns to friends and relatives. When Clinton raised the cost of the FFL X10 he did not renew and sent his records to the ATF. Fast forward 20 years and the state comes looking for the sales tax on the guns he sold. Having no records he asked an ATF agent he knew about how he could get copies of his records the ATF had. The agent laughed and said it would be almost impossible because nothing was cataloged. He said just send the state a few dollars and be done with it.
    Nothing is fool proof for a sufficiently talented fool
    Everyone is brave until the roach flies

  3. #83
    All or nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    You've "moved the goalposts." Your initial claim was the FFL was not the only place the info was stored and the Feds kept their own records. You adjusted claim was the Feds have access to the FFL's records. I agree with your adjusted claim the Feds can get the information they need from a FFL. I don't agree the Feds keep their own records of transactions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seem to know the game.
    Last edited by Magdump; July 12th, 2019 at 11:37 AM.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it———
    Bangswitch

  4. #84
    All or nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    As I understand the law, when the records are sent in when a business closes, the Feds are allowed to scan the paperwork to store it digitally but they are not legally allowed to make that digital copy searchable.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it———
    Bangswitch

  5. #85
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seen to know the game.
    NICS is run by the FBI. They give the yes, no, wait. They aren’t supposed to keep records on application. Once you got the yes. The FFL fills in what you are buying, collects your money and files your application either, in a cabinet or some other electronic means. That information stays in the sole possession of the FFL until they close their doors.

    The reason the ATF can so quickly identify who bought a gun that is part of an investigation, is they call the manufacturer give them the serial and the manufacturer says ‘I sold that to billy bobs guns’ so they call billy bobs guns and billy pulls his files and says Jethro bought it. If they needed to know everything you bought from an FFL, they would need to know every FFL you ever bought from. Now if the FBI kept records of every green light they gave you then it wouldn’t be that difficult, just a bunch of leg work (maybe no that much leg work for some guys).

  6. #86
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.
    If the NISC system were corrupt and kept record of every green light then I imagine that to be a pretty big conspiracy. The FBI runs it, but I would wager its just run of the mill customer service level staff manning the phones. Maybe I’m wrong. But a conspiracy involving that many low tier employees is bound to be blown wide open in short order. But NICS been running for 25 years and I’m unaware of any deep-throats/ whistle blowers.

    Don't get me wrong the law is broken daily by over zealous people tasked with enforcing it. I just struggled making that leap on the NICS. Maybe I’m naive.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; July 12th, 2019 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #87
    All or nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post

    Maybe I’m naive.
    Maybe so, but I’m thinking some folks just have poor memories, don’t pay attention to current events, live in a constant state of denial and simply don’t want to believe their government is mostly an out of control, overgrown system of controlling entities that simply do not care about any laws that don’t serve their agenda.... or they’re just mindless and can’t really think for themselves. All I can do about the times we live in is do my best to protect myself and my family from the terrible things that happen to good law abiding people every day in this country as a result of government agencies and authorities. Being naive or ignorant or in denial won’t help me at all with that task.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it———
    Bangswitch

  8. #88
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.
    Amen. They collect everything on everyone that they can.. They may never need or have reason to look at your information but its there if needed. Utah had the largest data collection site but there are many more. What happens if this information is hacked or you get another bo in office. Blackmail whoever they want. Can you say SC John Roberts? What about the last two years of illegal investigations on our president? Don't trust any of them.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  9. #89
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    So, does anyone here believe the info that a gun shop or FFL keeps on every gun purchase is the only record of the transaction?
    Does anyone here think that since the Brady Bill and background checks came into existence, (early 1990’s?) the Feds have not kept their own records?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seem to know the game.
    The Feds do not know if a transaction has taken place unless they are told about the transaction. They only know a check was made and someone was authorized to make a purchase. Imagine someone goes to a dealer, fills out the paperwork, and gets approved. How do the Feds know if they purchased a single firearm or if they changed their mind and left without purchasing anything? The Fed's entry only shows an approval unless the dealer sends them more information. If they dealer does not send them more information, they have no record of that transaction. So the only record of that gun purchase is at the dealer.

  10. #90
    Marksman

    Gold Member

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    Good old Cory Booker has a plan for us boys and girls,Turn in your AR or go to jail!!! How's that working out in lets say New Zealand?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Ef58evHFw
    "When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say, For Your Tomorrow, We Gave Our's Today"

    Voting is the responsibility of a citizen, even if voting may not necessarily be obligatory. To not vote seems to me to be an abrogation of one's responsibility as a citizen, regardless of one's politics.

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