Call from ATF to check some of my guns

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  • Troedoff

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    Oct 18, 2014
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    The ATF trace center has many many 40' C-cans outside their building full of records yet to be micro filmed, much less put into an electronic database. From my understanding they micro film all the documents sent into them. Assuming the article I read on the Trace center, and how they work is true, and correct. they cannot make a searchable electronic database. Whether that database exists or not depends on your level of trust for, and belief of government conspiracy. According to the article I read, they convert the paper 4473, to micro film to save space, an that isn't happening at an alarming rate, because there are only about 5 or 6 people working at the trace center. In my experience with gun traces through the business, I have only ever spoken to one of three women over 10+ years, so I can believe that there is a small workforce there.
     
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    buttanic

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    Back in the 80's a relative had an FFL mainly for his own benefit but he did sell a few guns to friends and relatives. When Clinton raised the cost of the FFL X10 he did not renew and sent his records to the ATF. Fast forward 20 years and the state comes looking for the sales tax on the guns he sold. Having no records he asked an ATF agent he knew about how he could get copies of his records the ATF had. The agent laughed and said it would be almost impossible because nothing was cataloged. He said just send the state a few dollars and be done with it.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    You've "moved the goalposts." Your initial claim was the FFL was not the only place the info was stored and the Feds kept their own records. You adjusted claim was the Feds have access to the FFL's records. I agree with your adjusted claim the Feds can get the information they need from a FFL. I don't agree the Feds keep their own records of transactions.


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    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seem to know the game.
     
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    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    As I understand the law, when the records are sent in when a business closes, the Feds are allowed to scan the paperwork to store it digitally but they are not legally allowed to make that digital copy searchable.


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    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seen to know the game.

    NICS is run by the FBI. They give the yes, no, wait. They aren’t supposed to keep records on application. Once you got the yes. The FFL fills in what you are buying, collects your money and files your application either, in a cabinet or some other electronic means. That information stays in the sole possession of the FFL until they close their doors.

    The reason the ATF can so quickly identify who bought a gun that is part of an investigation, is they call the manufacturer give them the serial and the manufacturer says ‘I sold that to billy bobs guns’ so they call billy bobs guns and billy pulls his files and says Jethro bought it. If they needed to know everything you bought from an FFL, they would need to know every FFL you ever bought from. Now if the FBI kept records of every green light they gave you then it wouldn’t be that difficult, just a bunch of leg work (maybe no that much leg work for some guys).
     

    Bangswitch

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    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.

    If the NISC system were corrupt and kept record of every green light then I imagine that to be a pretty big conspiracy. The FBI runs it, but I would wager its just run of the mill customer service level staff manning the phones. Maybe I’m wrong. But a conspiracy involving that many low tier employees is bound to be blown wide open in short order. But NICS been running for 25 years and I’m unaware of any deep-throats/ whistle blowers.

    Don't get me wrong the law is broken daily by over zealous people tasked with enforcing it. I just struggled making that leap on the NICS. Maybe I’m naive.
     
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    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Dec 31, 2013
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    Maybe I’m naive.
    Maybe so, but I’m thinking some folks just have poor memories, don’t pay attention to current events, live in a constant state of denial and simply don’t want to believe their government is mostly an out of control, overgrown system of controlling entities that simply do not care about any laws that don’t serve their agenda.... or they’re just mindless and can’t really think for themselves. All I can do about the times we live in is do my best to protect myself and my family from the terrible things that happen to good law abiding people every day in this country as a result of government agencies and authorities. Being naive or ignorant or in denial won’t help me at all with that task.
     

    bowhtr1

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    Only quoting this post because I didn’t want to quote everyone expressing these beliefs and fill a page. Why do you all continue to believe that government agencies follow the laws when time and again they’ve shown they have no regard for the laws or your rights? Is being ignorant really that blissful? This is the data collection age. They collect and store everything. Why else would they have built the largest data collection storage facility in the world? What could they possibly be using that for?
    Time and again you are shown the facts but can’t quite seem to put it all together.
    Know what? The powers that be can put stuff together. Background check. And how did you pay for that firearm? Credit card? Debit card? And to whom was payment made?
    Anyone who don’t believe that all the info the Feds need is already stored and waiting to be accessed whenever the need arises should ask themselves if they choose to believe otherwise or if they’re just that clueless. Feds get ready to check you out and they won’t have to ask you much of anything.
    Amen. They collect everything on everyone that they can.. They may never need or have reason to look at your information but its there if needed. Utah had the largest data collection site but there are many more. What happens if this information is hacked or you get another bo in office. Blackmail whoever they want. Can you say SC John Roberts? What about the last two years of illegal investigations on our president? Don't trust any of them.

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    thperez1972

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    Dec 28, 2015
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    So, does anyone here believe the info that a gun shop or FFL keeps on every gun purchase is the only record of the transaction?
    Does anyone here think that since the Brady Bill and background checks came into existence, (early 1990’s?) the Feds have not kept their own records?

    Dude...you still find a way to completely not understand. It’s amazing. It’s almost as if you don’t want to for the sake of your argument. Lemme try one last time..
    ATF knows you bought a gun or two from this guy on this day because all your most personal ID info was reported along with the fact that you were buying a gun or two or ten. Do you think they need more than that if they know exactly where to go for the rest of that info any time they get ready? Like having files on a computer and knowing you can pull it up at any time. The file is named. Press a few keys, browse, bang.
    Now, if the Feds weren’t informed every time you made a gun purchase via background check, what would they have then? Huh?
    I didn’t move the goal posts. You just don’t seem to know the game.

    The Feds do not know if a transaction has taken place unless they are told about the transaction. They only know a check was made and someone was authorized to make a purchase. Imagine someone goes to a dealer, fills out the paperwork, and gets approved. How do the Feds know if they purchased a single firearm or if they changed their mind and left without purchasing anything? The Fed's entry only shows an approval unless the dealer sends them more information. If they dealer does not send them more information, they have no record of that transaction. So the only record of that gun purchase is at the dealer.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Good old Cory Booker has a plan for us boys and girls,Turn in your AR or go to jail!!! How's that working out in lets say New Zealand?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Ef58evHFw

    Thanks for that I pressed play and went back to working on some stuff. I think the stupid started to melt my brain. When I heard the chick say something about Clinton being a victim of misogyny during the 2016 cycle it sent the smoke billowing from my ears.
     

    Coyote5.0

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    I would think they need a search warrant if you refuse. And for that probable cause. IANAL. Dan would be the one to call for the best advice. And he is a lawyer.
     
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    340six

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    Thanks for that I pressed play and went back to working on some stuff. I think the stupid started to melt my brain. When I heard the chick say something about Clinton being a victim of misogyny during the 2016 cycle it sent the smoke billowing from my ears.

    To quote him He lives in low income black and brown neiborhood I stopped there
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    163   0   0
    Dec 31, 2013
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    Hammond, Louisiana
    The Feds do not know if a transaction has taken place unless they are told about the transaction. They only know a check was made and someone was authorized to make a purchase. Imagine someone goes to a dealer, fills out the paperwork, and gets approved. How do the Feds know if they purchased a single firearm or if they changed their mind and left without purchasing anything? The Fed's entry only shows an approval unless the dealer sends them more information. If they dealer does not send them more information, they have no record of that transaction. So the only record of that gun purchase is at the dealer.
    although your account of a background check appears to include some generic person and nothing much else, we know that full name, DOB, birthplace, current addy and many times (because it’s encouraged) social security number is given and I wonder if they’ve calculated how many times a person passes a background check and doesn’t make the purchase. I’m betting it’s less than 5% of the time. But who am I to argue with your logic? Carry on.
     

    thperez1972

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    although your account of a background check appears to include some generic person and nothing much else, we know that full name, DOB, birthplace, current addy and many times (because it’s encouraged) social security number is given and I wonder if they’ve calculated how many times a person passes a background check and doesn’t make the purchase. I’m betting it’s less than 5% of the time. But who am I to argue with your logic? Carry on.

    We all know what info is included so there is no need to list it all when mentioning a background check. So using a "generic person" is fine. Even though the percentage is low, there are false entries in your list to go with the incomplete entries.


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    enigmedic

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    There can be nothing good from the ATF calling you.. They are not, will not ever be your friends.. It is their SOLE job to find bad guys, and to if needed, build cases of activity.. There IS nothing you are compelled to do, other than obey a warrant if personally served..
    I suggest, you change whatever behavior you might have been doing that from whatever perspective you need to take. looks bad. Something flagged you..
    I also suggest you consider having a lawyer number handy and have previously established an agreement and have a plan in place with a friend or family member to set in motion that lawyer if you were to be detained for anything.

    law enforcement may mislead, lie and even entrap you in the investigation.. There is never a point in which they are going to be doing you a favor.. PERIOD>

    good luck

    Do you have contact info for the individual who contacted you? If so, retain counsel, if you can afford it, and have your attorney contact him/her. If you don't know who contacted you, have your attorney contact the ATF anyway. Put them on notice that you have counsel; have him invoke your 4th and 5th amendment rights.

    If you don't or can't retain counsel, do not consent to a search and do not answer any questions.
    (As an aside, remember, it is a crime to lie to a federal agent. Even if you are innocent of any wrong doing and you tell the truth in response to a question, if you have answered a question, a case can possibly be made against you that you are lying. Even if you beat the rap, you won't beat the ride.)

    They either have probable cause or they don't. (Probable cause is needed for a warrant.) Invoking or exercising a right does not create probable cause; otherwise, it wouldn't be a right. If you consent, they are going to come in and search. If you don't consent and they have probable cause, they will leave, get a warrant, come back and come in and search. So you are really no worse off (except you won't know when they are coming and they may be a bit more brusque since you stood on your rights.) If you deny consent, and they don't have PC, they will leave and not come back unless and until they do. In the U.S.A. a person has no legal obligation to prove he is not breaking the law; the burden is on the govt to prove someone has broken the law. Refusing to prove you didn't break the law is not a crime.

    I am writing this assuming you do NOT have any tax stamped NFA items or a FFL of any type; if you do, you have already waived your 4th amendment rights and given consent to enter you premises. If so you are in a different position.

    If you have done anything illegal, you are NOT going to talk yourself out of an arrest.

    Good luck.

    THIS!!! A judicious man with sound advice.
     

    escknx

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    This sounds like a scam or a setup for a robbery. A IRS agent told me that the government never calls a citizen unless the citizen called first. She said that any investigative activity is always preceded by a letter. I can’t say for certain if this is 100% the same for the ATF. However, I would never agree to show any agency a firearm without a warrant or other official document.
    Its been 3 weeks and they never called back.
    I'll check with ATF later about wtf was that, but if that's scam, its weird he named several guns that I have, those are not easy to guess like Glock or generic ARs. I usually shop online thru local FFL, but those named were from one big physical retailer here in area. I wonder why would this retailer reported anything unless it was an investigation into something or it sells info to scammers.
    And again if I were scammer last things I would mess with are armed individuals and ATF.
     

    LACamper

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    Its been 3 weeks and they never called back.
    I'll check with ATF later about wtf was that, but if that's scam, its weird he named several guns that I have, those are not easy to guess like Glock or generic ARs. I usually shop online thru local FFL, but those named were from one big physical retailer here in area. I wonder why would this retailer reported anything unless it was an investigation into something or it sells info to scammers.
    And again if I were scammer last things I would mess with are armed individuals and ATF.

    Store employee with access to the records?
     
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