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  1. #1
    Marksman

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    ATF redefines what a “pistol” is?

    Saw this on the Mrgunsngear youtube channel and didn’t see anything posted here about it. I honestly can’t make heads or tails out of it. But I want to share and get the thoughts of those of you who are much brighter than I when it comes to these things.

    ATF Letter 6/25/2019
    https://princelaw.files.wordpress.co...e_redacted.pdf

    “The ATF has refined what a pistol is”
    https://youtu.be/Epcfx5WdVtc

    “What is a vertical grip and how to avoid getting arrested by the ATF”
    https://youtu.be/Ti87Ve9A598


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    ESSAYONS

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    What I gathered from it, the brace does not effect the length measurement because it is not an essential part for the weapon to function. I have an AR9 with a 4.5" barrel. I have an extended flash can and a 7" handguard. The muzzle device is not pinned. Neither the flash can nor the handguard are needed for the thing to function so they do not count toward the length. The thing has an SBA3 brace on it. The brace is not essential to function so it does not count. The buffer tube is needed. So the length would be from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel. This seems to clarify their method of measurement. This is also the reason you can have a not-a-shotgun with a 14" barrel and a brace. Because a stock is part of the definition of a rifle, it is counted in the length. So if a brace is to be counted, it would be viewed as a stock. And if it's a stock, you are not looking at an SBR and the total length would not be a factor when looking at a VFG. I may be missing something but it all seems pretty straightforward to me. Is there a specific part of that you'd like to discuss?

  3. #3
    All or nothing

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    Basically, if it’s shorter than 26 inches to include any parts needed to make the firearm function, you can’t legally have a vertical grip without clearance and paying more taxes... what I mean to say is, it’s the same old over reach and part of the whole attack on the second amendment... they’ve been doing little grabs here and there a lot.
    So, what does and does not constitute a vertical grip? What about hand stops? And are they simply trying to stop me from holding a pistol with 2 hands? Because that would be retarded...whoever can tell what they’re thinking.
    Last edited by Magdump; July 8th, 2019 at 06:22 PM.
    Contrary to popular belief, a head shot is not necessarily a guaranteed kill shot....but it sure does take the fight out of 'em.

    and if one in every 100,000,000 M&M's contained enough cyanide to kill a person, the Mars candy company would be forced by public outcry to correct it———
    Bangswitch

  4. #4
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Basically, if it’s shorter than 26 inches to include any parts needed to make the firearm function, you can’t legally have a vertical grip without clearance and paying more taxes... what I mean to say is, it’s the same old over reach and part of the whole attack on the second amendment... they’ve been doing little grabs here and there a lot.
    So, what down and does not constitute a vertical grip? What about hand stops? And are they simply trying to stop me from holding a pistol with 2 hands? Because that would be retarded...whoever can tell what they’re thinking.
    I don't think the ATF is changing what they consider a VFG. The letter reference in the video with the ATF interpretation is from 2013.

  5. #5
    Marksman

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    Bringing back a phrase I haven’t heard this year. This is a big nothing-berger.

    Now I’m not the brightest but it seems the ATF is leaning into the 26 inch length rule for a pistol and clarifying that the not-a-stock braces are not getting included in the required to function length.

    Now I started to trip over myself when the got specific about the folding not-a-stock buffer tubes, but I think they are saying unless the gun can’t be fired folded the folded length become the minimum functioning length length. I believe the law tactical was meant to allow for locked bolt firing, but don’t take my word for it. I would hate to see someone with a bolt carrier in their orbital socket.

    Now everyone knows my opinion of this administration’s 2A policies and it’s no secret I’m highly skeptical of the ATF but if the 26 inch rule is easier to meet and pistols don’t need stamps (yet) I would like to think this may be better for us gun nuts.

    Edit:
    Ok correction here: 26 inches doesn’t mean pistol it means ‘concealable’. The goal is to get a ‘firearm’ with a folding stock (folded its less than 26 inches) and smooth bore that requires two hands to operate would be an AOW. Because it can function while folded has a smooth bore and concealable, it is not a pistol, not a ‘firearm’ (anymore) it’s now an AOW.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; July 7th, 2019 at 09:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Basically, if it’s shorter than 26 inches to include any parts needed to make the firearm function, you can’t legally have a vertical grip without clearance and paying more taxes... what I mean to say is, it’s the same old over reach and part of the whole attack on the second amendment... they’ve been doing little grabs here and there a lot.
    So, what down and does not constitute a vertical grip? What about hand stops? And are they simply trying to stop me from holding a pistol with 2 hands? Because that would be retarded...whoever can tell what they’re thinking.
    I thought a forward grip on anything shorter than a ‘long gun’ required a stamp was I wrong?
    Last edited by Bangswitch; July 7th, 2019 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Marksman

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    Yeah I think I understand the vertical grip thing, however ridiculous I find it to be. I understand the 26” rifle/pistol better after Perez’s explanation, thanks for that.

    Being that the ATF clarification letter came out 6/25/19, I was interested in knowing if anything changed, and I was finding myself confused reading the letter(I ain’t real bright!).

    Mrgunsandgear’s video is helpful too. If you didn’t get a chance to watch his video on the vertical grip issue it’s worth a watch. His interpretation of what constitutes a violation/vertical grip is interesting.

    Thanks for the responses.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Marksman

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    Ok so the ACE firearm with a folding brace was classified as a ‘firearm’ because it wasn’t a rifle it was too long to be a pistol and required 2 hands to operate. Because the folding not-a-stock is basically an accessory it is going to reclassify the ACE to an AOW requiring a stamp.

    Seems I was wrong they were out to rewrite the rules to ‘screw’ the American people.

    edit:

    interestingly enough if they made an ACE in semi-auto it may could be classified as a pistol.

    Just kidding it would have to be rifled also.

    I believe I’ve proven my earlier statement: I’m not the brightest.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; July 7th, 2019 at 09:12 PM.

  9. #9
    ESSAYONS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    I thought a forward grip on anything shorter than a ‘long gun’ required a stamp was I wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Strick8 View Post
    Yeah I think I understand the vertical grip thing, however ridiculous I find it to be. I understand the 26* rifle/pistol better after Perez’s explanation, thanks for that.

    Being that the ATF clarification letter came out 6/25/19, I was interested in knowing if anything changed, and I was finding myself confused reading the letter(I ain’t real bright!).

    Mrgunsandgear’s video is helpful too. If you didn’t get a chance to watch his video on the vertical grip issue it’s worth a watch. His interpretation of what constitutes a violation/vertical grip is interesting.

    Thanks for the responses.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are you referring to the Black Aces pump firearms?

  10. #10
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by thperez1972 View Post
    Are you referring to the Black Aces pump firearms?
    Yes. It seems to tiptoe so carefully through the minefield the ATF decided to drop a mortar on it instead.

    Its 19* folded 27* with brace extended.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; July 7th, 2019 at 09:20 PM.

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