No more open carry at Walmart

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    geoney

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    Yelling "Fire" in a movie theater or crowded building leads the public to perceive there is a fire.

    Wearing armor and carrying a rifle/handgun in a grocery store leads the public to perceive there is/will be an active shooter.

    Both cases can easily and justifiably cause a public concern and panic.

    ERxcept "bearing arms" is specifically constitutionally protected.

    Furthermore, yelling fire, which only has a singular prupose... to alerrt to fire, and wearing XYZ in and of itself is not illegal,, and does not present a danger to anyone, is a false comparison.
     

    geoney

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    I don't understand the disconnect.

    It is a crime to yell fire in a crowded place when there is no fire, but your words will cause people to think there is a fire and panic.
    It is not a crime to walk down the street yelling fire. People may look at you like you are crazy, but you wouldn't be inciting panic by causing people to flee a room.

    Is it plausible that carrying an AR anywhere could cause the general public to fear for their safety? Absolutely. That's why we don't walk around with ARs and body armor on the reg. My point is that police may give more leniency with someone "exercising their 2A rights" out on an open street than in a crowded store.

    We have a lot of cops on here. What are your thoughts? How would you handle a guy walking down the street in armor and carrying a rifle?

    I would hope they would observe and perhaps speak to someone if that person freely wants to since they are not only not necessarily committing a crime, but also performing a completely USC protected activity.
     

    geoney

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    I would hope they would observe and perhaps speak to someone if that person freely wants to since they are not only not necessarily committing a crime, but also performing a completely USC protected activity.

    Actually it is not that grey at all. It is pretty well defined. It is not the "eopen ended" catch all that a lot of people who don't take the time to read the law before mentioning it think it is.

    "§103. Disturbing the peace

    A. Disturbing the peace is the doing of any of the following in such manner as would foreseeably disturb or alarm the public:

    (1) Engaging in a fistic encounter; or

    (2) Addressing any offensive, derisive, or annoying words to any other person who is lawfully in any street, or other public place; or call him by any offensive or derisive name, or make any noise or exclamation in his presence and hearing with the intent to deride, offend, or annoy him, or to prevent him from pursuing his lawful business, occupation, or duty; or

    (3) Appearing in an intoxicated condition; or

    (4) Engaging in any act in a violent and tumultuous manner by any three or more persons; or

    (5) Holding of an unlawful assembly; or

    (6) Interruption of any lawful assembly of people; or

    (7) Intentionally engaging in any act or any utterance, gesture, or display designed to disrupt a funeral, funeral route, or burial of a deceased person during the period beginning one hundred twenty minutes before and ending one hundred twenty minutes after the funeral or burial, within three hundred feet of the funeral or burial.

    (8)(a) Intentionally blocking, impeding, inhibiting, or in any other manner obstructing or interfering with a funeral route.

    (b) Intentionally blocking, impeding, inhibiting, or in any other manner obstructing or interfering, within five hundred feet, with access into or from any building or parking lot of a building in which a funeral or burial is being conducted, or any burial plot or the parking lot of the cemetery in which a funeral or burial is being conducted, during the period beginning one hundred twenty minutes before and ending one hundred twenty minutes after the funeral or burial.

    B.(1) Whoever commits the crime of disturbing the peace shall be fined not more than one hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than ninety days, or both.

    (2) Whoever commits the crime of disturbing the peace as provided for in Paragraphs (A)(7) and (8) of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

    C. For purposes of Paragraphs (A)(7) and (8) of this Section:

    (1) "Funeral" includes a funeral, funeral home viewing, wake, or memorial service.

    (2) "Funeral route" means the route of ingress or egress from the location of a funeral or burial, including thirty feet from the outer edge of the outside lane of the route.

    Amended by Acts 1960, No. 70, §1; Acts 1963, No. 93, §1; Acts 1968, No. 647, §1; Acts 1979, No. 222, §1; Acts 2006, No. 805, §1; Acts 2013, No. 30, §1, eff. May 29, 2013."
     

    Bangswitch

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    Your argument only applies to Mala In Se laws (wrong in theirself) These are crimes that as a society we agree or morally wrong like murder, rape, theft, assault, etc.

    Mala Prohibita, laws that are laws because they are prohibited but have no moral element - speeding, noise ordinance, pulling a permit to build a fence, etc. Those are only laws by definition.

    There is a belief in criminal justice philosophy that a crime is only actually a crime when it is acknolwedge through the state via action, like an arrest. SO by that notion, running a red light and not getting cought is not by definition a crime.

    Private security, at least in LA don't carry rifles.

    So I never speed except when I’m caught. Wonder if that might help me get out of a ticket.:dogkeke:

    I get it the point is sometimes things become a crime not because they are wrong but because the affect others. Typically there are clearly defined laws you use speeding as an example. You make the point you can be speeding while abiding the posted limit but the drivers manual discusses road conditions and potential hazards as cause to drive slower than the posted speed limit. It doesn’t define how slow because it’s impossible to determine, and it’s left up to the officer’s discretion. I’m not saying it can’t happen but any officers ever right that ticket? Additionally a moving violation is not the same as being charged with a crime the rules aren’t the same. If you have never been to traffic court expecting an innocent until proven guilty scenario I hate to disappoint but that ain’t how it works.

    That’s not the case in the discussion that Austin and I are having. His point was time and place are the primary factors secondary would be others perception based on time and place. More specifically a mass shooting took place at one Walmart recently so it’s a crime there but not walking down the street etc. (I can’t recall all his examples). I contend if it’s a crime in one public place where people would not normally expect to see people with rifles and panic it’s a crime in all. Or it’s not a crime because relying on public precept is dangerous at best.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Additionally there would be the Men’s rea defense. Which I believe Austin was not interested in arguing which is fine. The guy clearly was seeking attention and reactions. I don’t believe terror was intended. With the internet full of people ‘playing lawyer’ at traffic stops and creating encounters with LEO’s to ‘school them on their rights’ so that a bunch of young idiots can give it a try next, I see this as the most likely motive for his behavior.
     

    thperez1972

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    You make the point you can be speeding while abiding the posted limit but the drivers manual discusses road conditions and potential hazards as cause to drive slower than the posted speed limit. It doesn’t define how slow because it’s impossible to determine, and it’s left up to the officer’s discretion. I’m not saying it can’t happen but any officers ever right that ticket?

    No. The most likely cause of dangerous road conditions involves bad weather, usually rain. As as my FTO told me back in the day, a good cop doesn't get wet.
     

    geoney

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    Additionally there would be the Men’s rea defense. Which I believe Austin was not interested in arguing which is fine. The guy clearly was seeking attention and reactions. I don’t believe terror was intended. With the internet full of people ‘playing lawyer’ at traffic stops and creating encounters with LEO’s to ‘school them on their rights’ so that a bunch of young idiots can give it a try next, I see this as the most likely motive for his behavior.

    Mens rea means "guilty mind" basically you knew what you did was wrong / bad. That is not actually an element in most crimes and is certainly not a "Defense" in that sense of the word.

    The issue with the OC AH is that until he does something actually criminal or reasonably expceted to be criminal, LE cannot really interact with him in anything less than a consensual way. Even if it alarms people.. what he is doing is legal. Period.
     

    JBP55

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    He most likely would not be banned from "All Wal Mart stores forever" He would likely only be banned from that store.

    Incorrect, All Wal Mart Stores and they are told that in the Security Office of Wal Mart before they are escorted out by a LEO.
     

    Magdump

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    ....

    "Just cause" and "suspicion" are not real things. Perhaps you meant reasonable suspicion and probable cause? Those are actual things that happen not only in the field but also in court. They absolutely fair well in court.

    You don't have a sound ordinance issue without a complaint. Most noise ordinances do have specific parameters, but also things can be subjective.

    .
    Yes, I meant reasonable suspicion and probable cause, mr editor...as you point out, I didn’t get the exact terminology which gave you a foothold in trying to disprove my point which is: they are not evidence that a crime has been committed. They are not stand alone evidence for a conviction. They are used to imply guilt but are not proof. When used alone they can either be shot down in court or leave room for reversal.

    You can absolutely be arrested/ticketed and found guilty and be sentenced/fined for breaking the law when it comes to a sound ordinance without a civilian complaint. I’m not in a courtroom at the moment so I don’t feel the need to cite case law but I know that it’s happened before. Whether or not the court considered the arresting cop to be the source of the complaint is unbeknownst to me. The evidenced used was a sound meter reading that exceeded the limit set forth in the ordinance.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Mens rea means "guilty mind" basically you knew what you did was wrong / bad. That is not actually an element in most crimes and is certainly not a "Defense" in that sense of the word.

    The issue with the OC AH is that until he does something actually criminal or reasonably expceted to be criminal, LE cannot really interact with him in anything less than a consensual way. Even if it alarms people.. what he is doing is legal. Period.

    Yep I know what Mens rea means. I rarely use words like that that I don’t understand first.

    I guess the confusion comes in when I said mens rea defense. I suppose I should have said lack there of.

    If his actions were constitutionally protected up until either private property rights supersede them or his actions were meant to create panic. A guilty mind would be needed for a crime to have occurred.

    Now you could argue anyone with a brain should know what he did was likely to cause panic, but yet again we are not legally required to have a brain. I argue his actions were to seek attention like everyone else agrees but I don’t believe his intent was panic. I conclude he’s a moron, not a terrorist.
     

    Bangswitch

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    I will say if someone shot and killed him while he was behaving in this manner they would have one heck of a defense. I couldn’t imagine them being charged or found guilty unless it was quite obvious.
     

    Emperor

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    Not to derail the conversation, but as I suspected; the left (and that includes the "so called" news media specifically), couldn't wait to use this decision by Wal-Mart as some great awakening! As if this was the turning point for the country to stand up against some boogeyman! Beleiving somehow, that Wal-Mart is the moral compass for the rest of corporate America to follow. :puke:

    I tell you all, it is just beyond my understanding how any people (who make the personal choice to align themselves with these political ideologies of the democrats and the left), can be this naive, ignorant, and stupid.

    Their willingness to go along with these idiots through all the smoke and mirrors, as these elitists scum politicians push for more self-enriching power is absolutely mind numbing.

    We don't have political and ideological divisiveness in this country, we have hell of A LOT of morons living amongst us!
     

    AustinBR

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    Nope that’s not how it works. That’s an ‘it’s only stealing if you get caught’ argument.

    Thats not always the case either if someone is wearing a vest that says security and they are toting an AR I would be more concerned than if he had no marking and a cell phone cam. Private security that regularly carry AR’s aren’t your typical Paul Blart type. But my point was reasonable people will try to reason away why someone would have an AR and a vest in public. One result is fear/concern. It’s a highly probable result, but not the only conclusion a reasonable person may reach.

    Kind of like me liking Ides of March might be because I like brass bands, not diddling children.

    Reasonable people might think you train too much and have to many guns, and you should have them all taken away. I’m pretty sure no one here is that kind of reasonable. :dogkeke:

    You also have to look at the merit and underlying reasoning of the law. Noise ordinances are intended to keep people from being bothered. If somehow a house in the middle of no-where falls into the jurisdiction of a noise ordinance, which is often unlikely, someone has to be bothered by loud noise for there to be a complaint filed. Stealing is taking something of value from someone else. Value is lost for one party and gained from another. There is an injury or loss in this case. Someone breaking a noise law by being loud on their property is not causing damage to anyone who cannot hear them. If an officer were to somehow end up near the house for whatever reason and write a citation, I'd argue that it would very easily be thrown out in court.

    Regarding private security and ARs: I've never seen private security carry ARs. It's always police or military and they are always wearing something to identify themselves as such. I can't see many companies in the states hiring security contractors with ARs that are not active-duty cops. It's just too much of a risk to the company.

    I, like many of us on here, am very comfortable around firearms. If I see someone with markings (LEO/Mil) with a vest and a rifle, I'm not going to be concerned. If I am at a shooting range (in a class) and see someone with a vest/rifle, I won't be concerned. Most people who use vests in classes are LEOs who train with what they carry. If I am at FRC and am standing next to a guy with a vest/rifle who is playing tacticool, I'll probably leave. People who play tacticool usually aren't the types I want to be around. If I'm in public and see someone in an unmarked vest with a rifle, I am 100% leaving and not staying within 1000 yards of them, if possible. It's just not normal and is a red-flag.

    I stand by my argument that this guy went out with the intention of using his firearm/vest to cause a scene. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.

    Your argument only applies to Mala In Se laws (wrong in theirself) These are crimes that as a society we agree or morally wrong like murder, rape, theft, assault, etc.

    Mala Prohibita, laws that are laws because they are prohibited but have no moral element - speeding, noise ordinance, pulling a permit to build a fence, etc. Those are only laws by definition.

    There is a belief in criminal justice philosophy that a crime is only actually a crime when it is acknolwedge through the state via action, like an arrest. SO by that notion, running a red light and not getting cought is not by definition a crime.

    Private security, at least in LA don't carry rifles.

    There are also instances where it would be more okay to break the law. If a red light is clearly malfunctioning and keeps you stopped for ten minutes at an intersection where there are no cars coming, would it not technically be illegal to go through it anyway?

    Additionally there would be the Men’s rea defense. Which I believe Austin was not interested in arguing which is fine. The guy clearly was seeking attention and reactions. I don’t believe terror was intended. With the internet full of people ‘playing lawyer’ at traffic stops and creating encounters with LEO’s to ‘school them on their rights’ so that a bunch of young idiots can give it a try next, I see this as the most likely motive for his behavior.

    I wasn't really interested in discussing it, as you mentioned, but I will speculate on it.

    "Most states use the MPC's classification for various mentes reae. The MPC organizes and defines culpable states of mind into four hierarchical categories:

    acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
    acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result
    acting recklessly - The defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk
    acting negligently - The defendant was not aware of the risk, but should have been aware of the risk"


    Pulled that from here:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea

    I argue that he behaved knowingly, recklessly, and negligently. He was warned by others beforehand that it was a bad idea and chose to do it anyway. He knew (or should have known) that it was a bad idea, especially directly following a mass-shooting. His behavior and actions placed him at what I would argue to be a substantial and unjustified risk and also directly placed others in a risk as well. Negligence is easy - he should have known better. The hard one is purposely. It's hard to argue his purpose or intent as we were calling it earlier. Do I think he intended to cause such a panic that it would yield him terrorist charges....probably not. He probably wanted to try to "school" some officers on 2A. But there was a clear risk (reckless/negligent) that he should have been aware of.

    At the end of the day, he may not have intended to cause a huge panic that resulted in people being injured, but he did. His actions directly caused a panic and people were injured as a result of it. He might not have known that it was a crime and might not have intended to actively commit a crime, but he still did. If you are driving and unintentionally run over a biker through reckless/negligent behavior, you committed manslaughter. You may not have intended to commit manslaughter, but you still did.
     

    Bangswitch

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    You also have to look at the merit and underlying reasoning of the law. Noise ordinances are intended to keep people from being bothered. If somehow a house in the middle of no-where falls into the jurisdiction of a noise ordinance, which is often unlikely, someone has to be bothered by loud noise for there to be a complaint filed. Stealing is taking something of value from someone else. Value is lost for one party and gained from another. There is an injury or loss in this case. Someone breaking a noise law by being loud on their property is not causing damage to anyone who cannot hear them. If an officer were to somehow end up near the house for whatever reason and write a citation, I'd argue that it would very easily be thrown out in court.

    Regarding private security and ARs: I've never seen private security carry ARs. It's always police or military and they are always wearing something to identify themselves as such. I can't see many companies in the states hiring security contractors with ARs that are not active-duty cops. It's just too much of a risk to the company.

    I, like many of us on here, am very comfortable around firearms. If I see someone with markings (LEO/Mil) with a vest and a rifle, I'm not going to be concerned. If I am at a shooting range (in a class) and see someone with a vest/rifle, I won't be concerned. Most people who use vests in classes are LEOs who train with what they carry. If I am at FRC and am standing next to a guy with a vest/rifle who is playing tacticool, I'll probably leave. People who play tacticool usually aren't the types I want to be around. If I'm in public and see someone in an unmarked vest with a rifle, I am 100% leaving and not staying within 1000 yards of them, if possible. It's just not normal and is a red-flag.

    I stand by my argument that this guy went out with the intention of using his firearm/vest to cause a scene. He played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.



    There are also instances where it would be more okay to break the law. If a red light is clearly malfunctioning and keeps you stopped for ten minutes at an intersection where there are no cars coming, would it not technically be illegal to go through it anyway?



    I wasn't really interested in discussing it, as you mentioned, but I will speculate on it.

    "Most states use the MPC's classification for various mentes reae. The MPC organizes and defines culpable states of mind into four hierarchical categories:

    acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
    acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result
    acting recklessly - The defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk
    acting negligently - The defendant was not aware of the risk, but should have been aware of the risk"


    Pulled that from here:
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea

    I argue that he behaved knowingly, recklessly, and negligently. He was warned by others beforehand that it was a bad idea and chose to do it anyway. He knew (or should have known) that it was a bad idea, especially directly following a mass-shooting. His behavior and actions placed him at what I would argue to be a substantial and unjustified risk and also directly placed others in a risk as well. Negligence is easy - he should have known better. The hard one is purposely. It's hard to argue his purpose or intent as we were calling it earlier. Do I think he intended to cause such a panic that it would yield him terrorist charges....probably not. He probably wanted to try to "school" some officers on 2A. But there was a clear risk (reckless/negligent) that he should have been aware of.

    At the end of the day, he may not have intended to cause a huge panic that resulted in people being injured, but he did. His actions directly caused a panic and people were injured as a result of it. He might not have known that it was a crime and might not have intended to actively commit a crime, but he still did. If you are driving and unintentionally run over a biker through reckless/negligent behavior, you committed manslaughter. You may not have intended to commit manslaughter, but you still did.

    From the top:

    1. The ordnance thing ain't worth arguing over. I seen your point but have some disagreements.
    2. When I say private security, I’m talking legit operators. Those dudes don’t typically wear an identifying patch. And yes there are quite a few that operate statewide. There are a few retired SEAL/CAG/JSOC types who have their own companies. My point was reasonable people can come up with all kinds of explanations.
    3. Comparing running someone over to causing a panic isn’t apples and apple either but I’ll give it a try. Driving a car comes with risk, and it’s the drivers responsibility not to run someone over. However there are instances when it will never be the drivers fault (suicide by automobile). Carrying a firearm comes with risk too, sometimes scaring the living poop out of people is one of those risks, but you can’t control how someone else reacts, just like you can’t stop people from jumping in-front of your car. You can control what they react to. Keep in mind bearing arms is a fundamental right, this just complicates the scenario.
    4. I’m willing to be swayed on this guy. Is there any account that says he raised or pointed the weapon in anyone or anything’s direction? I’m guessing not, but I’ll gladly accept your position if he did.
     
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    AustinBR

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    From the top:

    1. The ordnance thing ain't worth arguing over. I seen your point but have some disagreements.
    2. When I say private security, I’m talking legit operators. Those dudes don’t typically wear an identifying patch. And yes there are quite a few that operate statewide. There are a few retired SEAL/CAG/JSOC types who have their own companies. My point was reasonable people can come up with all kinds of explanations.
    3. Comparing running someone over to causing a panic isn’t apples and apple either but I’ll give it a try. Driving a car comes with risk, and it’s the drivers responsibility not to run someone over. However there are instances when it will never be the drivers fault (suicide by automobile). Carrying a firearm comes with risk too, sometimes scaring the living poop out of people is one of those risks, but you can’t control how someone else reacts, just like you can’t stop people from jumping in-front of your car. You can control what they react to. Keep in mind bearing arms is a fundamental right, this just complicates the scenario.
    4. I’m willing to be swayed on this guy. Is there any account that says he raised or pointed the weapon in anyone or anything’s direction? I’m guessing not, but I’ll gladly accept your position if he did.

    2) Legit operators won't wear vests over their clothes and walk around with an AR over their shoulder in grocery stores. There are personal protection and various security companies that utilize individuals armed with vests and rifles as part of various jobs/details. These types of details typically would not 'operate' a shopping cart in a Walmart in that attire. Generally, if someone is employed in a function that requires armor/vests AND they are in a PUBLIC space, they will wear something that shows who they are / why they are appearing the way they are. The private security patrolling a billionaire's mansion is not who I am talking about.

    3) While you cannot control a bike or a person coming in front of your car, you are often responsible for swerving around them if they do. You can't just hit them if you have the ability to move around them. In this sense, you have a duty, while driving, to attempt to not hit people, even if they get in your way. While you have a 2A right to bear arms, you do not have a right to induce a mass panic. There are limitations to all of the amendments. We have freedom of speech, but you are not free to slander people or businesses. We are not free to use speech as a call of action to instigate harm to another. We are not free to use speech to harass or assault others. I am as big of a supporter of the second amendment as anyone else, but there is a very fine line between bearing arms for safety/security and using arms for attention and to scare the public.

    I still think that context is key. There is a lot of context with the 2A, for example, I don't want my neighbor owning nuclear weapons. That is a restriction on the right to bear arms that I think we are all okay with. In this case, it seems logical to think that this guy chose Walmart as his location for "2A Awarenes" solely because it was the location of a recent mass-shooting. It also seems logical that he likely knew that his presence would easily and justifiably scare multiple people. He wasn't charged with a weapons violation. He was charged with terrorism charges related to causing a panic. That is a very important distinction. I'm not arguing against his right to own an AR, pistol, or vest. I am arguing that he chose to use the three to intentionally cause duress to others, which is not, and should not be okay.

    4) I don't know. I don't know if the AR was on a sling. If it was on a sling, I don't know if he had it on his back or front. If it was on a sling in his front, it is likely that he handled it at some point. Walking around with a weapon in your hand, in a Walmart, seems like a brandishing charge.
     
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