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  • DAVE_M

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    Why is it *not a good thing*?

    If one chooses another method of carry that’s fine.

    I refuse to ridicule my fellow citizens who choose to exercise their RIGHTS without asking for PERMISSION.

    Apples and potatoes.


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    You have the right to do whatever you want. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    There are specific reasons why concealed carry trumps open carry, and none of those reasons have to do with your constitutional rights. If you carry a firearm to exercise your constitutional right, that's your prerogative, but don't get upset by the fact that it may not be the wisest method of carry if you choose to carry for self defense.
     

    Troedoff

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    Don't think criminals care whether your OC, or CC. It is just a measured risk for them, and most of the time what they do does not make sense. There are outside factors that motivate them to stupidity. I am more afraid of what I don't see, than what I do. I have been in survival long enough to know that for every predator you see, there are many you do not.
     

    991GT3

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    You have the right to do whatever you want. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    There are specific reasons why concealed carry trumps open carry, and none of those reasons have to do with your constitutional rights. If you carry a firearm to exercise your constitutional right, that's your prerogative, but don't get upset by the fact that it may not be the wisest method of carry if you choose to carry for self defense.

    I think all of that applies to the bulk replying to this thread.

    I could not care less how one chooses to carry.

    And why should I?

    There’s too much important things to concern ourselves with to be bothered by how someone else chooses to arm themselves and carry.



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    DAVE_M

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    I think all of that applies to the bulk replying to this thread.

    I could not care less how one chooses to carry.

    And why should I?

    There’s too much important things to concern ourselves with to be bothered by how someone else chooses to arm themselves and carry.



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    I only concern myself with the affairs of others when those affairs effect me. The ill-advised behavior of others could lead to uninformed legislators enacting legislation that could affect me personally. I don't care if you drink and drive, but I don't advocate for drinking and driving, because it can potentially affect me. Just as I don't care if you open carry, but I don't advocate for doing so, because it sheds a different light on the gun owning community that will potentially affect me.
     

    MOTOR51

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    Using a trigger finger release holster right next to a sleeping newborn’s head surely nothing could go wrong.

    zEMmphS.gif

    Your video should have ended with an ATF agent taking his gun. His gun handling skills is obviously a danger to himself and others.


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    Bangswitch

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    Your video should have ended with an ATF agent taking his gun. His gun handling skills is obviously a danger to himself and others.


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    What you don’t think he learned a lesson?

    Bullet hole in his thigh should be punishment enough. :dogkeke:

    It’s been around the Internet for quite some time. The expansion for his injuries was he drew from a SERPA and his finger slipped into the trigger guard while bent from releasing the retention device. I believe it was a 1911, so he easily touched it off when his finger slipped. SERPA’s were all the rage around that time frame. I prefer drawing an empty weapon on new holsters to figure out what potential problems may arise before I accidentally shoot myself but hey different strokes.
     
    Last edited:

    MOTOR51

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    What you don’t think he learned a lesson?

    Bullet hole in his thigh should be punishment enough. :dogkeke:

    It’s been around the Internet for quite some time. The expansion for his injuries was he drew from a SERPA and his finger slipped into the trigger guard while bent from releasing the retention device. I believe it was a 1911, so he easily touched it off when his finger slipped. SERPA’s were all the rage around that time frame. I prefer drawing an empty weapon on new holsters to figure out what potential problems may arise before I accidentally shoot myself but hey different strokes.

    You can’t fix stupid. I carried a serpa duty holster and also had one for off duty. I still know guys who carry serpa duty holsters and have yet to see one fail or cause a ND


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    Bangswitch

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    You can’t fix stupid. I carried a serpa duty holster and also had one for off duty. I still know guys who carry serpa duty holsters and have yet to see one fail or cause a ND


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    Would you agree that the both fine and coarse motor skills required to operate a SERPA add an inherent risk to ND’s when a person hasn’t developed the muscle memory well enough or is a tad bit rusty. I’m sure you know I don’t blame inanimate objects for failure, but I do believe in stacking the deck in favor of success.
     

    Troedoff

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    pretty sure 1911's have safety's on them that should have stopped stupid from shooting himself. This guy did nothing right, and we are blaming his equipment? I am sure we could come up with at the least 10 things this guy did wrong, before we factor his choice of holstering equipment.
     

    MOTOR51

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    pretty sure 1911's have safety's on them that should have stopped stupid from shooting himself. This guy did nothing right, and we are blaming his equipment? I am sure we could come up with at the least 10 things this guy did wrong, before we factor his choice of holstering equipment.

    Yep


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    MOTOR51

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    Would you agree that the both fine and coarse motor skills required to operate a SERPA add an inherent risk to ND’s when a person hasn’t developed the muscle memory well enough or is a tad bit rusty. I’m sure you know I don’t blame inanimate objects for failure, but I do believe in stacking the deck in favor of success.

    When the serpa duty holsters came out for their led weaponlight it was the hottest thing around. A ton of officers including myself purchased them and most put it on their duty belt and went to work the same day. I know of no ND associated with that holster from then to now and I can guarantee they were drawn under more stress than engaging a paper target. If there were countless ND involving property damage and injury I would imagine Blackhawk would be broke from all of the lawsuits. The guy in the video is a jack ass.


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    340six

    -Global Mod-
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    Years back I got a new /used Sepa with fake carbon fiber look for range use. Someone had it who was told they were junk so they sold it.
    So far I got my 20 bucks worth from The Blackhawk.
    If I was carrying one of my 1911's it would be in good leather, cocked and locked.
     

    Bangswitch

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    pretty sure 1911's have safety's on them that should have stopped stupid from shooting himself. This guy did nothing right, and we are blaming his equipment? I am sure we could come up with at the least 10 things this guy did wrong, before we factor his choice of holstering equipment.
    Fair enough valid point. I didn’t blame his equipment blamed him and pointed out his equipment and lack of practice with it, can increase the likelihood of F-ups. On the one handgun I carry with a safety is on fire before I clear the holster it’s one fluid motion safety is tripped as my thumb finds it’s position. As I mentioned before pressing the release on a SERPA with the tip of your trigger finger instead of the print of your trigger finger can lead to you trigger landing in the trigger guard as you are clearing the holster that’s why I said failed to develop good muscle memory with that specific holster adds to the danger of drawing a gun with live rounds.
     

    Bangswitch

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    When the serpa duty holsters came out for their led weaponlight it was the hottest thing around. A ton of officers including myself purchased them and most put it on their duty belt and went to work the same day. I know of no ND associated with that holster from then to now and I can guarantee they were drawn under more stress than engaging a paper target. If there were countless ND involving property damage and injury I would imagine Blackhawk would be broke from all of the lawsuits. The guy in the video is a jack ass.


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    I didn’t say there was any of the sort. I was hoping you could follow the logic of how a curved trigger finger pressing the release of a Serpa may land in the wrong place and the wrong time.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Dec 28, 2015
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    From June 18, 2012:

    Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
    U. S. Department of Homeland Security
    1131 Chapel Crossing Road
    Glynco, Georgia 31524

    Homeland Security

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND DECISION

    HOLSTER STUDY SYNOPSIS
    As a result of four separate incidents 1 related to auto-lock, trigger finger manipulation holsters
    [Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II holsters" (low wall)], the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
    (FLETC) requested that a study be conducted to identify any common causative factors unique to this
    holster design. The study was assigned to Firearms Division (FAD) at FLETC-Glynco with assistance
    from the FLETC Field Training Directorate (FTD). A subsequent companion study of the Blackhawk
    SERPA CQC Level II Holster (high wall) was also conducted which resulted in similar findings.

    The scope of both holster studies was devised to identify any safety related problems unique to the
    deactivation of the retention device while drawing and presenting the firearm. This testing included the
    following components: a review of the current FAD curriculum; review of FAD Standard Operating
    Procedures (SOPs); an interview of the student involved in the FLETC-Glynco accident; a search to
    identify and verify other outside incidents within the firearms training community; and psycho-motor
    skills testing 111 of the process of drawing a weapon from the auto-lock trigger finger manipulation holster.
    The participants completed written feedback critiques at the conclusion of their session. Also, there was
    limited video recording of certain portions of the testing.


    SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
    The conclusions and results gathered from the analysis of holster testing and participant feedback was
    captured in separate reports at the completion of both the studies.

    > Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This
    sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failures". This series of failures is first
    recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.

    • This inability is caused by:

    o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
    deactivation of the retention mechanism.

    o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature *locks* the pistol in the holster.

    Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
    o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
    holster and tends to transition from digital -pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
    trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
    fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger,
    o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
    positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.

    > The feedback from the majority of the FAD staff that participated in the study indicates that a
    holster that requires multi-tasking of the trigger finger or that has a release mechanism closely
    proximal to the trigger is potentially problematic by increasing the risk of an inadvertent
    discharge. Subsequent review of the studies by the FLETC FTD SMEs also concluded that
    proximity of the finger to the trigger creates an inherent safety risk.

    > The proctors that administered the testing are all SMEs vl from the FLETC Basic and/or Advanced
    Firearm Training Programs and. The recommendation provided by these SMEs regarding the use
    of this style holster range from *hesitant to recommend the use of’ to *should not be used in
    training. *

    > The frame by frame review of the video from the intem/CITP student portion of the psycho-
    motor skills testing indicates that during approximately 25% of the draw strokes the shooter’s
    trigger finger was proximal to the trigger and approximately 13% of the draw strokes began out
    of sequence (low wall study).

    > The interview with the CITP student involved in the training accident on December 13, 201 1,
    revealed that the curriculum and presentation of that curriculum was appropriate and complete.
    The student indicated that he experienced a sequencing error and discharged his weapon.

    > An informal survey was conducted of commercial and private firearms training facilities. Several
    responses included; this style of holsters can be used but must have the release mechanism
    disabled, or cannot be used at a facility.

    DECISION
    Based upon the known facts, SME observations and both holster study findings, the FLETC submits the
    following training decision:

    > The FLETC is restricting the use of level II retention, auto lock-trigger finger release style
    holsters during all firearms training on FLETC firearms ranges. Holsters that possess a single
    retention release mechanism that is located proximal to the trigger area of the firearm are
    problematic and pose a safety hazard. Holsters that include additional release mechanisms (level
    III retention) should be evaluated for suitability prior to use on FLETC firearms ranges. This
    restriction will be classified as a *local range rule* which the FLETC has used in the past to
    improve safety practices during firearms training at all FLETC training sites.



    Connie L. Patrick, Director
    Federal Law Enforcement Training Center


    https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf
     

    Bangswitch

    Well-Known Member
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    1   0   0
    Jan 10, 2019
    2,221
    38
    a location near you
    From June 18, 2012:

    Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
    U. S. Department of Homeland Security
    1131 Chapel Crossing Road
    Glynco, Georgia 31524

    Homeland Security

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND DECISION

    HOLSTER STUDY SYNOPSIS
    As a result of four separate incidents 1 related to auto-lock, trigger finger manipulation holsters
    [Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II holsters" (low wall)], the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
    (FLETC) requested that a study be conducted to identify any common causative factors unique to this
    holster design. The study was assigned to Firearms Division (FAD) at FLETC-Glynco with assistance
    from the FLETC Field Training Directorate (FTD). A subsequent companion study of the Blackhawk
    SERPA CQC Level II Holster (high wall) was also conducted which resulted in similar findings.

    The scope of both holster studies was devised to identify any safety related problems unique to the
    deactivation of the retention device while drawing and presenting the firearm. This testing included the
    following components: a review of the current FAD curriculum; review of FAD Standard Operating
    Procedures (SOPs); an interview of the student involved in the FLETC-Glynco accident; a search to
    identify and verify other outside incidents within the firearms training community; and psycho-motor
    skills testing 111 of the process of drawing a weapon from the auto-lock trigger finger manipulation holster.
    The participants completed written feedback critiques at the conclusion of their session. Also, there was
    limited video recording of certain portions of the testing.


    SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
    The conclusions and results gathered from the analysis of holster testing and participant feedback was
    captured in separate reports at the completion of both the studies.

    > Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This
    sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failures". This series of failures is first
    recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.

    • This inability is caused by:

    o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
    deactivation of the retention mechanism.

    o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature *locks* the pistol in the holster.

    Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
    o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
    holster and tends to transition from digital -pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
    trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
    fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger,
    o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
    positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.

    > The feedback from the majority of the FAD staff that participated in the study indicates that a
    holster that requires multi-tasking of the trigger finger or that has a release mechanism closely
    proximal to the trigger is potentially problematic by increasing the risk of an inadvertent
    discharge. Subsequent review of the studies by the FLETC FTD SMEs also concluded that
    proximity of the finger to the trigger creates an inherent safety risk.

    > The proctors that administered the testing are all SMEs vl from the FLETC Basic and/or Advanced
    Firearm Training Programs and. The recommendation provided by these SMEs regarding the use
    of this style holster range from *hesitant to recommend the use of’ to *should not be used in
    training. *

    > The frame by frame review of the video from the intem/CITP student portion of the psycho-
    motor skills testing indicates that during approximately 25% of the draw strokes the shooter’s
    trigger finger was proximal to the trigger and approximately 13% of the draw strokes began out
    of sequence (low wall study).

    > The interview with the CITP student involved in the training accident on December 13, 201 1,
    revealed that the curriculum and presentation of that curriculum was appropriate and complete.
    The student indicated that he experienced a sequencing error and discharged his weapon.

    > An informal survey was conducted of commercial and private firearms training facilities. Several
    responses included; this style of holsters can be used but must have the release mechanism
    disabled, or cannot be used at a facility.

    DECISION
    Based upon the known facts, SME observations and both holster study findings, the FLETC submits the
    following training decision:

    > The FLETC is restricting the use of level II retention, auto lock-trigger finger release style
    holsters during all firearms training on FLETC firearms ranges. Holsters that possess a single
    retention release mechanism that is located proximal to the trigger area of the firearm are
    problematic and pose a safety hazard. Holsters that include additional release mechanisms (level
    III retention) should be evaluated for suitability prior to use on FLETC firearms ranges. This
    restriction will be classified as a *local range rule* which the FLETC has used in the past to
    improve safety practices during firearms training at all FLETC training sites.



    Connie L. Patrick, Director
    Federal Law Enforcement Training Center


    https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

    So what you are saying is some people smarter than me recognized that people with with more training than me suffered from repeated potentially dangerous errors brought on by duress while using the Serpa? Yep I stand by my post yet again it’s not for me and it’s probably not for most. It’s definitely not for a mollie mount on a baby carrier. But if you can use it correctly it will do its job.

    Oh oh yeah and not for senior Limps-a-Lot.
     
    Last edited:

    LACamper

    oldbie
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    Jun 3, 2007
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    Why is it “not a good thing”?

    If one chooses another method of carry that’s fine.

    I refuse to ridicule my fellow citizens who choose to exercise their RIGHTS without asking for PERMISSION.

    Apples and potatoes.


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    Because of the restrictions in certain stores (not that I shop in walmart much anyway), and the loss of ammo sales there, and the negative publicity again. I like having the option to OC...
     

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