What is your go-to home defense weapon?

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  • What do you choose for home defense?


    • Total voters
      58

    Bangswitch

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    All I found was a million posts about how it's a myth.

    The folks at Federal seem to agree.



    That video doesn’t discuss shotgun ammunition how does it disprove anything?

    Note my personal choice was my 9mm, but 00buck slings 12 .33 caliber pellets at handgun speeds. Each pellet weigh roughly 41 grains. By the way there is 0000 but I think you might get 6 pellets if you are lucky (never handloaded that stuff).

    If you want to call ‘stopping power’ a myth I argue it’s more of a nebulous term than a myth but that’s fine. But there is a massive amount of force exerted in often a golf ball size area using a 12ga.

    Have you ever seen someone or something shot with 00buck? It’s friggin nasty especially if it’s followed by multiple shells. More Vinson is lost to buck shot every year running dogs than the average person would eat in a lifetime.
     

    DAVE_M

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    That video doesn’t discuss shotgun ammunition how does it disprove anything?

    Note my personal choice was my 9mm, but 00buck slings 12 .33 caliber pellets at handgun speeds. Each pellet weigh roughly 41 grains. By the way there is 0000 but I think you might get 6 pellets if you are lucky (never handloaded that stuff).

    If you want to call ‘stopping power’ a myth I argue it’s more of a nebulous term than a myth but that’s fine. But there is a massive amount of force exerted in often a golf ball size area using a 12ga.

    Have you ever seen someone or something shot with 00buck? It’s friggin nasty especially if it’s followed by multiple shells. More Vinson is lost to buck shot every year running dogs than the average person would eat in a lifetime.

    There is a small snippet where rifle ammunition is mentioned in regards to projectile velocity while discussing the elasticity of human tissue. Although they don't specifically mention shotgun ammunition, the video is relevant to the discussion.

    I'm not arguing that it's a myth. I'm simply asking for clarification on the context of what Magdump was referring to. From his other post, he is of the opinion that the term relates to muzzle energy. I have no further questions in regards to that. I will agree that it's an ambiguous term.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    That video doesn’t discuss shotgun ammunition how does it disprove anything?

    Note my personal choice was my 9mm, but 00buck slings 12 .33 caliber pellets at handgun speeds. Each pellet weigh roughly 41 grains. By the way there is 0000 but I think you might get 6 pellets if you are lucky (never handloaded that stuff).

    If you want to call ‘stopping power’ a myth I argue it’s more of a nebulous term than a myth but that’s fine. .
    He’s welcome to his opinion but his aim is not to offer anything really. Like I said earlier, I knew where he was going and I just don’t coddle the youngsters and their little struggles.
     

    DAVE_M

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    He’s welcome to his opinion but his aim is not to offer anything really. Like I said earlier, I knew where he was going and I just don’t coddle the youngsters and their little struggles.

    You are quick to make judgement with such ignorance. Such is life, I suppose.

    My aim is to explore everyone's individual ideology of why they make specific choices. As an example, many will reply that their home defense weapon is the firearm they carry daily. This is the most logical solution given that there is an increased chance that it will be the most accessible firearm. Home invasions don't always occur while you're sleeping in your bedroom.
     

    Magdump

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    There is a small snippet where rifle ammunition is mentioned in regards to projectile velocity while discussing the elasticity of human tissue. Although they don't specifically mention shotgun ammunition, the video is relevant to the discussion.

    I'm not arguing that it's a myth. I'm simply asking for clarification on the context of what Magdump was referring to. From his other post, he is of the opinion that the term relates to muzzle energy. I have no further questions in regards to that. I will agree that it's an ambiguous term.


    For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, which I’m certain is a moot point here, I’ll simplify things and explain the why I’d rather shoot an intruder with a 12 gauge. The hit is way more prone to instantly stop the perp in his tracks and he will be far less likely to get off a shot at me or my family afterward. In other words, I want the first shot on target to count. You can call it knock down or stopping power or kill power or anything you like. I’ll call it stopping power because that’s what it is when it applies to someone trying to harm you. Now go ahead and argue some more and tell us all how a 12ga shotgun blast has no more capacity to end a threat as fast as a 9mm , .45, 5.56, etc. because we all know you’re the authority on the subject. Btw, how many GSW autopsies have you assisted with? GSW trauma surgeries?

    EDIT: You can believe all you want that my reasons for favoring the 12ga are false, but you can’t convince me otherwise.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    There is a small snippet where rifle ammunition is mentioned in regards to projectile velocity while discussing the elasticity of human tissue. Although they don't specifically mention shotgun ammunition, the video is relevant to the discussion.

    I'm not arguing that it's a myth. I'm simply asking for clarification on the context of what Magdump was referring to. From his other post, he is of the opinion that the term relates to muzzle energy. I have no further questions in regards to that. I will agree that it's an ambiguous term.

    But you used that video to refute ‘stopping power’ as a myth. I watched the whole video it was pretty good.

    It is absolutely an ambiguous term. But I can testify to having drilled a deer in the shoulder bone with a large rifle and it broke there spine. That was that was from impact not the wound channel.

    Additionally I don’t like gel to compare chest cavity wounding. I know it’s a fairly reliable medium but it really doesn’t compare with my experience doing my own little autopsies on the animals I’ve shot. And that may be that I normally shoot animals with large lungs protected by boney shoulders.
     

    Magdump

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    I'm simply asking for clarification on the context of what Magdump was referring to. From his other post, he is of the opinion that the term relates to muzzle energy. I have no further questions in regards to that. I will agree that it's an ambiguous term.
    I’ll address this: I am not of the opinion that muzzle energy means stopping power. I assumed everyone here was educated enough to do the math. Even common sense will tell most folks that a dump truck doing 50mph is gonna wreak a lot more havoc than a civic doing 50mph.
    Civic hits the bus doing 50=bad wreck
    Dump truck hits the bus doing 50= too effed up for the evening news
    I just did that in my head without a calculator or anything...
     

    AustinBR

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    For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, which I’m certain is a moot point here, I’ll simplify things and explain the why I’d rather shoot an intruder with a 12 gauge. The hit is way more prone to instantly stop the perp in his tracks and he will be far less likely to get off a shot at me or my family afterward. In other words, I want the first shot on target to count. You can call it knock down or stopping power or kill power or anything you like. I’ll call it stopping power because that’s what it is when it applies to someone trying to harm you. Now go ahead and argue some more and tell us all how a 12ga shotgun blast has no more capacity to end a threat as fast as a 9mm , .45, 5.56, etc. because we all know you’re the authority on the subject. Btw, how many GSW autopsies have you assisted with? GSW trauma surgeries?

    EDIT: You can believe all you want that my reasons for favoring the 12ga are false, but you can’t convince me otherwise.

    You're statement at the end about not being able to be convinced otherwise is rather close minded, don't you think?

    I bolded a few key points in your post, above, that I think are worth discussing further.

    People often state that stopping power is a myth, which is true based on definition and context. In terms of handgun calibers, a 45 vs a 9mm vs a 380 are rather negligible. When discussing with larger bullets, it starts to make more sense. Personally, if I'm forced to use a weapon on someone in a defensive situation, I'd like it to be one of the turrets attached to fighter jets or mounted on large ships. But that just doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons.

    While a shotgun may put out more projectiles and one shot is likely to do more damage than one shot with a pistol or an AR, that just isn't a fair comparison. It is also VERY contingent on the ONE shot hitting the intended target the first time. Followup shots are more difficult with a shotgun than with an AR or with a pistol due to felt recoil and weildiness. I don't really think anyone is going to disagree with that statement.

    Moving forward, talking about ONE shot isn't really smart. If a bad guy is in your home, you will likely not just shoot him once in the chest. You will keep firing until the threat is eliminated. A pistol or an AR allow for continued shots ANDANDAND more easily allow your second, third, forth, and fifth shots to hit target if your first shot misses, which is VERY likely under stressful situations.

    Also, this idea of the first ONE shot doing more damage neglects to mention the possibility of multiple opponents. A shotgun has a very limited capacity compared to a pistol or an AR. The latter two are better in most situations for dealing with multiple aggressors. They are also easier to reload, but I don't think that is really worth getting into as most people won't be reloading in these situations.

    Lastly, shotguns are often cumbersome and not as easy to use in tight quarters, such as a home. I mention this last because it is situation dependent and something that good training can help overcome.

    I might not change your mind, but I urge you to constantly challenge your beliefs and practices and to not get complacent on a method based on preconceived notions. If you choose to use a shotgun, train with it frequently and take shotgun specific classes that allow you to practice using it under stress and in close quarters.
     

    DAVE_M

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    32   0   0
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    For the sake of giving you the benefit of the doubt, which I’m certain is a moot point here, I’ll simplify things and explain the why I’d rather shoot an intruder with a 12 gauge. The hit is way more prone to instantly stop the perp in his tracks and he will be far less likely to get off a shot at me or my family afterward. In other words, I want the first shot on target to count. You can call it knock down or stopping power or kill power or anything you like. I’ll call it stopping power because that’s what it is when it applies to someone trying to harm you. Now go ahead and argue some more and tell us all how a 12ga shotgun blast has no more capacity to end a threat as fast as a 9mm , .45, 5.56, etc. because we all know you’re the authority on the subject. Btw, how many GSW autopsies have you assisted with? GSW trauma surgeries?

    EDIT: You can believe all you want that my reasons for favoring the 12ga are false, but you can’t convince me otherwise.

    Since you alluded to the answer I was seeking, I have no further questions. You value the low percentages of a single fatal wound.

    But you used that video to refute ‘stopping power’ as a myth. I watched the whole video it was pretty good.

    It is absolutely an ambiguous term. But I can testify to having drilled a deer in the shoulder bone with a large rifle and it broke there spine. That was that was from impact not the wound channel.

    Additionally I don’t like gel to compare chest cavity wounding. I know it’s a fairly reliable medium but it really doesn’t compare with my experience doing my own little autopsies on the animals I’ve shot. And that may be that I normally shoot animals with large lungs protected by boney shoulders.

    Ballistics gel is simply a controlled medium used when testing performance metrics. It's not a direct comparison.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    163   0   0
    Dec 31, 2013
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    You're statement at the end about not being able to be convinced otherwise is rather close minded, don't you think?

    I bolded a few key points in your post, above, that I think are worth discussing further.

    People often state that stopping power is a myth, which is true based on definition and context. In terms of handgun calibers, a 45 vs a 9mm vs a 380 are rather negligible. When discussing with larger bullets, it starts to make more sense. Personally, if I'm forced to use a weapon on someone in a defensive situation, I'd like it to be one of the turrets attached to fighter jets or mounted on large ships. But that just doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons.

    While a shotgun may put out more projectiles and one shot is likely to do more damage than one shot with a pistol or an AR, that just isn't a fair comparison. It is also VERY contingent on the ONE shot hitting the intended target the first time. Followup shots are more difficult with a shotgun than with an AR or with a pistol due to felt recoil and weildiness. I don't really think anyone is going to disagree with that statement.

    Moving forward, talking about ONE shot isn't really smart. If a bad guy is in your home, you will likely not just shoot him once in the chest. You will keep firing until the threat is eliminated. A pistol or an AR allow for continued shots ANDANDAND more easily allow your second, third, forth, and fifth shots to hit target if your first shot misses, which is VERY likely under stressful situations.

    Also, this idea of the first ONE shot doing more damage neglects to mention the possibility of multiple opponents. A shotgun has a very limited capacity compared to a pistol or an AR. The latter two are better in most situations for dealing with multiple aggressors. They are also easier to reload, but I don't think that is really worth getting into as most people won't be reloading in these situations.

    Lastly, shotguns are often cumbersome and not as easy to use in tight quarters, such as a home. I mention this last because it is situation dependent and something that good training can help overcome.

    I might not change your mind, but I urge you to constantly challenge your beliefs and practices and to not get complacent on a method based on preconceived notions. If you choose to use a shotgun, train with it frequently and take shotgun specific classes that allow you to practice using it under stress and in close quarters.

    First shot.
    If I can stop him before he can fire a round with my first shot. As I said before, just because you hit the bad guy first does not mean he can’t shoot back, and why would you assume I only plan to shoot once anyway?
    I’m comfortable with my belief that said first shot coming from a 12ga is a safe bet for accomplishing that. I’m not closed minded. I’m comfortable with what I believe and I still don’t see an argument that trumps what I believe. It seems to be you and jhal that are uncomfortable with my belief. I don’t care about that. Most of all, I’m comfortable with my ability to handle a shotgun in my home.
    Assumption is what I’m mostly seeing at the moment. Assumptions that I don’t have 40 years experience shooting a shotgun. Assumption that I have no training. Assumption that I can’t control the recoil of a 12ga or that I can’t hit my target. Assumption that I live in a cramped box. Assumption that I wouldn’t use any other of the weapons available to me if I was in tighter quarters or having to move about my home (did you read my first post?). So go ahead and try to change my mind and I’ll just keep wondering why.
     
    Last edited:

    Magdump

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    I’m sure I’m wrong and it’s just me, but it sure seems like some of you guys will go to some extremes just to argue, even with someone’s personal preference. Reminds me of the crazy liberal progressives in this country sometimes. I’m sure we have none of those here, but it sure reminds me of them.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Ballistics gel is simply a controlled medium used when testing performance metrics. It's not a direct comparison.
    I get that but what I’ve seen the gel isn’t a good analog for the chest cavity. Guts probably.

    I know we need something standard to make fair comparisons, but I’m just not seeing giant sound channels and I’ve skinned deer killed with several calibers and types of projectiles. I’ve began to believe the instant incapacitation has everything to do with impact.

    Another interesting thing is stabilization. When the M16 first came out the twist rate was so slow the bullet tumbled and yawed on impact. From memory I believe it had a devastating effect on the victim.
     

    Magdump

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    Another interesting thing is stabilization. When the M16 first came out the twist rate was so slow the bullet tumbled and yawed on impact. From memory I believe it had a devastating effect on the victim.
    I thought it was the twist rate was actually too fast for the bullet to ride on the lands and grooves because it was going too fast and just ripped through the rifling. It appears that’s a myth tho, as the early twist rate was 1:14
     
    Last edited:

    DAVE_M

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    I get that but what I’ve seen the gel isn’t a good analog for the chest cavity. Guts probably.

    I know we need something standard to make fair comparisons, but I’m just not seeing giant sound channels and I’ve skinned deer killed with several calibers and types of projectiles. I’ve began to believe the instant incapacitation has everything to do with impact.

    Another interesting thing is stabilization. When the M16 first came out the twist rate was so slow the bullet tumbled and yawed on impact. From memory I believe it had a devastating effect on the victim.

    Decades of ballistics studies, gel testing, and real world performance disagree with your assertion.

    Deer are not a good comparison to human anatomy. Strangely, pigs are close. Shooting a swine with a 556 duty round is rather interesting. Inspecting the cavity is eye opening.

    Banking on instantly incapacitating an aggressor is a rather low probability regardless of a chosen caliber. If you can cut the cord and turn off the lights with a single shot, caliber is irrelevant. Stacking the odds in your favor is desirable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought it was the twist rate was actually too fast for the bullet to ride on the lands and grooves because it was going too fast and just ripped through the rifling. It appears that’s a myth tho, as the early twist rate was 1:14

    Twist rate is not very important at such short distances.
     

    Magdump

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    Twist rate is not very important at such short distances.

    SFW jhal. SFW. It’s amazing how you can pick one little aspect of what someone says, force it through the square hole like pladough and attempt to continue the argument.
    I was commenting on the history of the M16 and the reason the bullets tumble. I know bullet stabilization doesn’t matter at short distances. Did you mean bullet stabilization instead of twist rate? You guys need Jesus

    One final attempt:
    If I and the bad guy square off in my home and we both raise guns, if I’m able to get off the first shot, wonder what is the difference between a bullet zipping through his chest and the impact of a load of shot in his chest. If he’s trying to squeeze off a shot when he’s hit, I just wonder if he can manage to better shoot me with a bullet zipping through, or a 12ga donkey kick to the chest. Might that shotgun hit delay him shooting back before I can shoot again? Might it disturb his aim? I wonder...No, no I don’t wonder. Not really.
     
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