It's Your Ammo Not Your Pistol!

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  • MOTOR51

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    Yes, there are people who would like to participate and learn. So when you describe what could arguably be a dangerous training technique, you bet you're going to be asked to explain it. I'd hate for a new shooter to read your drill and then shoot his buddy because he was running through the woods while firing his weapon without knowing what he was shooting at.

    So pages of arguing is in the name of safety. Ever notice it’s the same people arguing with everybody else? It’s like the guy who gets divorced 10 times but all his exes are crazy


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    So was it the ammo?
    Or a combination of weaker ammo and ‘limp wristing’?

    I’ve seen people have problems with cycling when shooting some of my pistols. No rhyme or reason, just poor technique, poor grip. I shoot the pistol and no problems. It’s especially so with some of the heavier caliber compacts. Just a week ago a buddy couldn’t get my Desert Eagle to cycle reliably but I had no issues. I’ve seen cyclic rate change when shooting full auto (between two shooters) and I attribute that to how secure the weapon is held when firing. Surely it’s not a new phenomenon but I’m finding many shooters who have never heard of it. Never considered how ammo might make a difference tho.


    Come to think of it, I don’t ever buy or shoot any crappy ammo, so I guess the guys shooting with me can’t use that excuse. I have amassed a rather large well worn magazine collection over the years... I bet they could blame the mags.
     
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    Emperor

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    So was it the ammo?
    Or a combination of weaker ammo and ‘limp wristing’?

    I’ve seen people have problems with cycling when shooting some of my pistols. No rhyme or reason, just poor technique, poor grip. I shoot the pistol and no problems. It’s especially so with some of the heavier caliber compacts. Just a week ago a buddy couldn’t get my Desert Eagle to cycle reliably but I had no issues. I’ve seen cyclic rate change when shooting full auto (between two shooters) and I attribute that to how secure the weapon is held when firing. Surely it’s not a new phenomenon but I’m finding many shooters who have never heard of it. Never considered how ammo might make a difference tho.


    Come to think of it, I don’t ever buy or shoot any crappy ammo, so I guess the guys shooting with me can’t use that excuse. I have amassed a rather large well worn magazine collection over the years... I bet they could blame the mags.

    I have deduced and suspect (after talking to Glock), that I subconsciously limp wristed (if that is what we are calling it :mamoru:), the gun as I was running. Keep in mind, it was the first time I tried it. It won't happen again!

    That is what "learning from your mistakes" is all about! ;)
     

    thperez1972

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    I have deduced and suspect (after talking to Glock), that I subconsciously limp wristed (if that is what we are calling it :mamoru:), the gun as I was running. Keep in mind, it was the first time I tried it. It won't happen again!

    That is what "learning from your mistakes" is all about! ;)

    It's a common phrase in the gun community. You hear it a lot in training classes, especially in some of the basic training classes with newer shooters.
     

    Emperor

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    Well he wouldn't know anything about training classes.

    :doh:

    You have to stop thinking that there a lot of gun enthusiasts in this country that can afford ANY type of organized or professional training. I would bet the amount of people in this country that actually own firearms who are not living at or below the poverty line is astoundingly high.

    There is nothing wrong with training, regardless of how it is obtained. Except for me, who just didn't get around to it in the last 45 years of gun handling, how do you expect ordinary folks to drop hundreds of dollars on a class? I know people less fortunate who own a firearm that can barely afford to put gas in their car. Now, do I care that they can't afford it? No! But you, and some others, assume that without some "formal" training you are destined to kill yourself or others. That is a fallacy.

    We get it! If you can afford training, you should. But conversely, if you can't; or don't want to, you aren't a lesser capable and ready firearm enthusiast.

    Your comment was kind of funny in it's timing, though.
     
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    Emperor

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    It's a common phrase in the gun community. You hear it a lot in training classes, especially in some of the basic training classes with newer shooters.

    PC Police would call it insensitive and bigoted. :dogkeke:

    Better see if jdavid1 thinks homo's should be allowed to have a firearm without formal training. :p
     

    jdavid1

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    We get it! If you can afford training, you should. But conversely, if you can't; or don't want to, you aren't a lesser capable and ready firearm enthusiast.

    So you are not getting proper professional training because you can't afford it? I don't understand what money has to do with it now when you are buying cases of Hornady for practice. All I am saying is if you are putting the effort in trying to "train" yourself, you should consider going to a professional.

    It's the same with any skill. I can buy a welding machine and teach myself to weld by watching videos and reading books. Could I learn on my own. Sure. Would practice make me better? Sure. But taking a class from a professional welder would be far more beneficial. I'm not saying you're not proficient with a gun. I'm saying you will learn a lot from a class.

    For example. I took my first class and learned I've never practiced shooting support hand only. I never thought about it before. Simple things like that can make a big difference.
     

    Emperor

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    So you are not getting proper professional training because you can't afford it? I don't understand what money has to do with it now when you are buying cases of Hornady for practice. All I am saying is if you are putting the effort in trying to "train" yourself, you should consider going to a professional.

    It's the same with any skill. I can buy a welding machine and teach myself to weld by watching videos and reading books. Could I learn on my own. Sure. Would practice make me better? Sure. But taking a class from a professional welder would be far more beneficial. I'm not saying you're not proficient with a gun. I'm saying you will learn a lot from a class.

    For example. I took my first class and learned I've never practiced shooting support hand only. I never thought about it before. Simple things like that can make a big difference.

    Perhaps you missed it earlier that I am not constrained financially. I was underscoring your apparent disdain for, or disappointment in, people who own or have firearms that have no formal training as a whole. Offering different reasons why some can't.

    I did mention that I just didn't get around to it! ;)
     

    thperez1972

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    :doh:

    You have to stop thinking that there a lot of gun enthusiasts in this country that can afford ANY type of organized or professional training. I would bet the amount of people in this country that actually own firearms who are not living at or below the poverty line is astoundingly high.

    There is nothing wrong with training, regardless of how it is obtained. Except for me, who just didn't get around to it in the last 45 years of gun handling, how do you expect ordinary folks to drop hundreds of dollars on a class? I know people less fortunate who own a firearm that can barely afford to put gas in their car. Now, do I care that they can't afford it? No! But you, and some others, assume that without some "formal" training you are destined to kill yourself or others. That is a fallacy.

    We get it! If you can afford training, you should. But conversely, if you can't; or don't want to, you aren't a lesser capable and ready firearm enthusiast.

    Your comment was kind of funny in it's timing, though.

    I know a number of people who haven't gone through formal training. That's not the issue. The issue is you are mentioning a technique you learned from a dvd that not only doesn't seem to be taught in any formal training but seems to be heavily discouraged by most available training. There are two obvious reasons for this. Either the guy who put the video training together is so advanced with his knowledge that he has figured out a technique nobody has thought of before or the guy has little to no knowledge of acceptable techniques. If it's the latter, then people who are training with his videos could be putting themselves behind those who have had no formal training. It would be better to have no training than to purposefully learn improper and dangerous techniques.
     

    Troedoff

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    So I was practicing my post apocalyptic scenario training last night, and encountered this very technique. It was late, and I was sitting on some pretty valuable loot with my crew in Tom Clancy's Division 2 PVP. Copter showed up, and I was able to use this technique in game to lay down suppressive fire for my mates and I to get our **** out of the dark zone. It worked great, and I got bonus points for shooting everything else in the area also. It works great.

    I couldn't help myself.
     

    Emperor

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    I know a number of people who haven't gone through formal training. That's not the issue. The issue is you are mentioning a technique you learned from a dvd that not only doesn't seem to be taught in any formal training but seems to be heavily discouraged by most available training. There are two obvious reasons for this. Either the guy who put the video training together is so advanced with his knowledge that he has figured out a technique nobody has thought of before or the guy has little to no knowledge of acceptable techniques. If it's the latter, then people who are training with his videos could be putting themselves behind those who have had no formal training. It would be better to have no training than to purposefully learn improper and dangerous techniques.

    This thread was never about how or why I do or do not train formally, informally, or in a delusional Playstation 4 fog. I do not care if anyone understands why I am doing what I am doing. I do not care if it is accepted by training gurus, training sycophants, or Black Ops couch ninjas. I do not care if it doesn't make practical sense to anyone. I did not ask anyone to disseminate my exercise to the point of whether someone believes it is right or wrong, or safe or dangerous. I also don't expect ANYONE on here to say, "hey, I need to try that too!" Don't care!

    What this was about was a pistol malfunction (which is a very common occurrence in the firearms world), evidently caused by running, and the lack of focus on gun grip while running and shooting. Oddly enough, if I never mentioned training for a deadly force encounter, but instead said I was running from a grizzly bear; we wouldn't be nit-picking the semantics of my personal choice of doing whatever the heck I want with my gun on my property in my spare time. Now would we?

    As I said, and as a hopeful placation to my critics (who seem to be very upset), I am a staunch PRO-EDUCATION person! In that, the meaning of education means any exercise physically, mentally, in reading, in therapy, in personal experiences, mathematics, language, social studies, geography, sciences, and any of the other things a human being can learn.

    I applaud those of you that have reached mental and physical utopia with firearms through training! I really do. But you are pushing training like religious zealots push Jesus!
     

    thperez1972

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    This thread was never about how or why I do or do not train formally, informally, or in a delusional Playstation 4 fog. I do not care if anyone understands why I am doing what I am doing. I do not care if it is accepted by training gurus, training sycophants, or Black Ops couch ninjas. I do not care if it doesn't make practical sense to anyone. I did not ask anyone to disseminate my exercise to the point of whether someone believes it is right or wrong, or safe or dangerous. I also don't expect ANYONE on here to say, "hey, I need to try that too!" Don't care!

    What this was about was a pistol malfunction (which is a very common occurrence in the firearms world), evidently caused by running, and the lack of focus on gun grip while running and shooting. Oddly enough, if I never mentioned training for a deadly force encounter, but instead said I was running from a grizzly bear; we wouldn't be nit-picking the semantics of my personal choice of doing whatever the heck I want with my gun on my property in my spare time. Now would we?

    If you encounter a threat that is know to be a person, it is likely that encounter would be in an area where there could be more humans. If the threat is know to be a bear, it is likely to be in an area where bears live. Most bears do not live in an urban environment. So if you are blindly firing rounds in a wooded environment, it's more likely there will not be a person there to be collateral damage. In an urban environment, there is a much higher chance you will encounter a human that could end up being a victim of your indiscriminate shooting. While the discussion would not have been so in depth had the threat been a bear, it's not because the technique is a good one. It's because the context of the action would be an environment where innocent casualties would be minimal to nil. And it would likely be the viewed that, while the technique may be employed in a wooded area, no reasonable person would try that technique in an urban environment.

    As I said, and as a hopeful placation to my critics (who seem to be very upset), I am a staunch PRO-EDUCATION person! In that, the meaning of education means any exercise physically, mentally, in reading, in therapy, in personal experiences, mathematics, language, social studies, geography, sciences, and any of the other things a human being can learn.

    I applaud those of you that have reached mental and physical utopia with firearms through training! I really do. But you are pushing training like religious zealots push Jesus!

    You mentioned in a previous post "I did mention that I just didn't get around to it!" I believe the issue for a few people is you didn't get around to take training classes where you may learn "best practices" but you did get around to watching at least some of a 7 disc DVD set and practice those techniques. But, hey, what you do and how you train is your business as long as you keep it to yourself. If, however, you post it on a public message board for the public to see, you should expect the public to provide feedback, even if the feedback isn't requested.
     

    Emperor

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    If you encounter a threat that is know to be a person, it is likely that encounter would be in an area where there could be more humans. If the threat is know to be a bear, it is likely to be in an area where bears live. Most bears do not live in an urban environment. So if you are blindly firing rounds in a wooded environment, it's more likely there will not be a person there to be collateral damage. In an urban environment, there is a much higher chance you will encounter a human that could end up being a victim of your indiscriminate shooting. While the discussion would not have been so in depth had the threat been a bear, it's not because the technique is a good one. It's because the context of the action would be an environment where innocent casualties would be minimal to nil. And it would likely be the viewed that, while the technique may be employed in a wooded area, no reasonable person would try that technique in an urban environment.

    I already maintained, that I would rather face consequences of my actions ONLY AFTER I SURVIVED! Sorry, if I accidentally hit someone collaterally and live, I will be fully prepared to face my consequences. Truth be told, when it comes to my family; they are first! I try to make it home alive ONLY WITH THEM IN MIND! You seem to suggest that because you and a few others believe that this escape plan may be collaterally dangerous, I should just turn around and "hope" not to be gunned down in the back?!? That ain't happening! You are also assuming that I can't decide on the spot, if I use this (one of hundreds of escape options), with or without shots fired; or if I choose this escape plan at all. That is the biggest underestimation in your argument. Who knows, I may **** my pants if someone really pulls a gun on me with intent to actually shoot me. I may! Just like I may hit some innocent bystander if I start shooting behind me. I may?!? But what just occurred to me is what if I practice and because practice makes perfect, I place 5 shots in the threats head and chest as I am fleeing and watching where I am running?

    You mentioned in a previous post "I did mention that I just didn't get around to it!" I believe the issue for a few people is you didn't get around to take training classes where you may learn "best practices" but you did get around to watching at least some of a 7 disc DVD set and practice those techniques. But, hey, what you do and how you train is your business as long as you keep it to yourself. If, however, you post it on a public message board for the public to see, you should expect the public to provide feedback, even if the feedback isn't requested.

    That's fine! I totally agree with that. How many times have members and guests on here seen this phrase posted in the last 10 years; "Any training is better than no training?" Get a calculator, it's a lot. What I watched and how many DVD's I have seen is another gross underestimation. And I have read a lot of your posts. You don't usually make that many underestimations in all of your posts much worse this one alone. However, we (on this public message board as you say), are not the end-all, be-all experts to have the final say in hypothetical scenarios. There are some things that are constants! Knowing what is going to happen in a gunfight / deadly force encounter is not a certainty. We on this board, are not clairvoyant. Unless I am missing something?!?

    I did not say that I didn't appreciate the feedback as unwarranted or unrequested. I said I really didn't care if it was negative to what I was doing. If it is sound critique, go for it. If I think I have succumbed to undeniable facts, I will concede. But we are now going into circular arguments. You don't agree with my technique, fine. I stand by my practice.
     
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    thperez1972

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    How many times have members and guests on here seen this phrase posted in the last 10 years; "Any training is better than no training?"

    A bunch of people: "Any training is better than no training."

    Emperor (reaching for his Concealed Carry University DVD set): "Hold my beer..."


    ---
    I'm out
     

    AustinBR

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    Who knows, I may **** my pants if someone really pulls a gun on me with intent to actually shoot me. I may! Just like I may hit some innocent bystander if I start shooting behind me. I may?!? But what just occurred to me is what if I practice and because practice makes perfect, I place 5 shots in the threats head and chest as I am fleeing and watching where I am running?

    I bolded two statements:

    1) Force-on-Force classes will give you an almost real dose of someone pulling a gun on you, with the intention of shooting you. It's also a lot more fun than running through a backyard shooting at paper/steel targets.

    2) Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Practicing bad techniques makes one better at doing bad techniques. It also engrains bad skills and mindsets that are harder to break with practice of good techniques.
     

    Emperor

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    I bolded two statements:

    1) Force-on-Force classes will give you an almost real dose of someone pulling a gun on you, with the intention of shooting you. It's also a lot more fun than running through a backyard shooting at paper/steel targets.

    2) Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Practicing bad techniques makes one better at doing bad techniques. It also engrains bad skills and mindsets that are harder to break with practice of good techniques.

    But;

    1. You know for certain you are NOT going to die going into it. SIP factor is considerably lower.
    2. This logic does not apply to everything in humanity and science.

    Key: SIP = **** in pants!

    :D

    I really would try it. I've seen videos of it and it looks like a hoot! I actually almost bought me some simunitions to try for myself. As I was shopping for it and reading about the specs I thought to myself; "hmm, I wonder what retard I know that I would actually trust shooting these at me?" :mamoru:

    Not sure why I never went ahead and got them?!?
     
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