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  • thperez1972

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    Perhaps!

    Besides, I have heard countless people on here, in self defense videos, elsewhere say they aren't sticking around to see what happens next in some scenario's. I know I have written on this forum a few times myself. I have kids and a wife. My throw caution to the wind and fight it out with a possible nutjob or killer to see who is the last man standing attitude died in high school. If I can get the hell out of dodge instead of standing there trading bullets, I'm a wisp of smoke. If tossing a few bullets behind me helps to that end, I'm throwing them.

    There are other, some would say better, ways to get the hell out of dodge without risking shooting innocent bystanders. Unless you are in a field, there is bound to be some concealment and usually some cover. There are techniques to tactically retreat from cover to cover while placing relatively accurate shots that, at worst, serve as suppressing fire. Does this dvd set include any drills on firing while backing up at a much less than full run? The HUGE hole in your drill is that the efficiency of the technique decreases once the threat moves laterally. If you are reaching around with your right arm, most rounds will be landing to the threat's right as he is facing you. A person's arm does not reach very far past center when reaching around to the side at a full run. That means the threat to the threat is almost eliminated if he moves to the left. Picture a street. You're now running down the middle of the street. The threat just runs after you on the left sidewalk while most or all of the rounds are hitting on the right side of the street.

    Granted, I'm assessing this technique using only the limited information available. Therefore, some assumptions about the drill must be made. So please correct what I may have gotten wrong. My gut feeling is, as stated before, this is a horrible drill that would have limited to no practical use in an urban environment and one's time would be much more efficiently spent on more practical drills. But I am willing to allow myself to be convinced otherwise.
     

    Emperor

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    Yeah, don't worry about that whole "you are responsible for every shot you fire" thing. Just throw rounds at random while looking the other way. Are you seriously not seeing how this is ridiculous and unsafe in any environment?

    If I were ever in a situation where I legitimately feared being killed by another person, I would worry about those consequences AFTER I made it out alive. Anything other is moot if your are dead! But make no mistake, it would be a conscious decision. Like drawing your weapon in the first place. You may not get to decide where the encounter takes place.
     

    thperez1972

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    I don't have a definitive answer to that yet. I do know that before that outing, I never tried to actually run away from a target (threat), at full draw or not. Much less while shooting, whether suppressive or with intent to kill. It was exhilarating to say the least. It was liberating after that. It's not necessarily random when you try it and start realizing it takes some practice and ultimately some skill to hit that steel plate as you are hauling ass.

    One thing that I know people are not trying enough if at all, is running away from ANY threat with their gun in hand. Try it, if you haven't. You'll find yourself thinking about it. You'll damn sure be thinking about where you are running to and what is in front of you. And that is what training is all about right? To get better at something, anything, that could put us in a better position to survive?

    I train quite a bit on movement with a gun in my hand. Some of it is moving toward the threat and some of it is moving away from the threat. But I have never seen a drill that actually instructs someone to shoot in a direction where you cannot see the target.
     

    Emperor

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    There are other, some would say better, ways to get the hell out of dodge without risking shooting innocent bystanders. Unless you are in a field, there is bound to be some concealment and usually some cover. There are techniques to tactically retreat from cover to cover while placing relatively accurate shots that, at worst, serve as suppressing fire. Does this dvd set include any drills on firing while backing up at a much less than full run? The HUGE hole in your drill is that the efficiency of the technique decreases once the threat moves laterally. If you are reaching around with your right arm, most rounds will be landing to the threat's right as he is facing you. A person's arm does not reach very far past center when reaching around to the side at a full run. That means the threat to the threat is almost eliminated if he moves to the left. Picture a street. You're now running down the middle of the street. The threat just runs after you on the left sidewalk while most or all of the rounds are hitting on the right side of the street.

    Granted, I'm assessing this technique using only the limited information available. Therefore, some assumptions about the drill must be made. So please correct what I may have gotten wrong. My gut feeling is, as stated before, this is a horrible drill that would have limited to no practical use in an urban environment and one's time would be much more efficiently spent on more practical drills. But I am willing to allow myself to be convinced otherwise.

    Again, I am not advocating this be standard procedure on the shooting exam at your CC class. It is but one drill in a host of drills. Some that I may not agree with. Don't know. I haven't seen them all. And yes, all of what you said. Hypothetically, when I see videos of cops hauling ass from a chaotic or overwhelming scene for their lives, it that all willy-nilly technique? No! They are getting off the x. Running away. Putting distance between them and the threat. Everyone, and most particularly police, may encounter a situation where they have a pistol and the threat has an automatic rifle. One example. I like when cops are heroes. I don't like it if they die as heroes. Whether they have the instilled discipline to shoot back or not, don't know!
     

    AustinBR

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    Not you too! :D Just kidding!

    I assume you get off the x, and you move in a direction that is (possibly, though not required) related to what hand the guy is holding a gun in.

    Yes, and no. But for the most part, you are putting "any" distance between you and the threat.

    Are you facing bad guy (5,10), still, and backing up while shooting? Or are you facing south, running, and trying to hit the target while faced away? That's what this drill has sounded like so far. Do initial shots take place as you move off the X?

    You are running away. I suppose if you were so inclined, you could run zig-zag, or east or west. The idea is to get off of the x (the spot where you are at when an imminent possibly deadly scenario begins).

    Well, I'm also in agreement that it sounds (from what has been presented so far) like a very unsafe and impractical drill. It's possible that we are all just misunderstanding you.

    If an arrow is coming straight out of the center of your chest, where is that arrow pointed while you are firing at the target?

    Where are your eyes pointed while you are firing at your target.


    What has been presented above makes it sound like your chest is pointed south, and your target is north, and that you are reaching around trying to hit a target behind you, while you are moving. If that is the case, it's not possible to look at the target and in the direction that you are moving at the same time, which no amount of training can make safe or reliable.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Have you ever attended formal training aside from your DVD set?

    There are typically discussions before, during, and after the class where legalities and best practices are discussed. Accountability is a real thing.
     

    Emperor

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    I train quite a bit on movement with a gun in my hand. Some of it is moving toward the threat and some of it is moving away from the threat. But I have never seen a drill that actually instructs someone to shoot in a direction where you cannot see the target.

    You are more than just a civilian gun carrier. The scenarios that you are put in may be far different than one I may be put in. You may or may not have rules of engagement that you are expected to follow. This is important: I, in a life or death situation have but one rule, get out of it alive. That is all I can offer myself.
     

    jdavid1

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    Clearly everyone in here is not going to change your mind, but what you are calling a "drill" would be unsafe in any situation. Run if you are going to run. Fight if you are going to fight. Don't try and be Rambo and both at the same time. You keep on with your Voda consulting style training. Hopefully you never have to use it.
     

    thperez1972

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    Again, I am not advocating this be standard procedure on the shooting exam at your CC class. It is but one drill in a host of drills. Some that I may not agree with. Don't know. I haven't seen them all. And yes, all of what you said. Hypothetically, when I see videos of cops hauling ass from a chaotic or overwhelming scene for their lives, it that all willy-nilly technique? No! They are getting off the x. Running away. Putting distance between them and the threat. Everyone, and most particularly police, may encounter a situation where they have a pistol and the threat has an automatic rifle. One example. I like when cops are heroes. I don't like it if they die as heroes. Whether they have the instilled discipline to shoot back or not, don't know!

    Yes, they are running away. But I'd suggest you would have a difficult time finding videos of cops running away while firing blindly behind them. If I feel I need to run a real distance in order to save my life, my mental plan is to place a couple of well placed suppressing shots, holstering my handgun, and devoting all of my thoughts and energy into getting from where I am to where I need to be. I can draw as I'm moving behind the new cover and be ready to scan for the treat. And I don't have to think about ensuring my finger is off the trigger while I'm running. In the case of the drill, you want to ensure your finger is on the trigger while under high stress and movement. Does the DVD cover a sympathetic squeezing of the trigger?
     

    thperez1972

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    You are more than just a civilian gun carrier. The scenarios that you are put in may be far different than one I may be put in. You may or may not have rules of engagement that you are expected to follow. This is important: I, in a life or death situation have but one rule, get out of it alive. That is all I can offer myself.

    Yes, my scenarios may be different. And I have the luxury of open carrying without stares so reholstering is much easier for me. But a civilian has some rules of engagement as well. I am confident when I say if you were to kill a child while running away and shooting blindly behind you, you will become intimately involved in the legal system. Yes, that whole "tried by 12 not carried by 6" thing. What I'm suggesting is, based on what I've learned so far about that technique, there are other techniques that would work as well without opening yourself up to a legal battle. Or at least giving you the best possible chance of winning the legal battle.
     

    AustinBR

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    I'm also curious if you've ever taken any formal, defensive handgun classes, outside of that from the DVD series.

    What about force on force classes?
     

    Emperor

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    Yes, my scenarios may be different. And I have the luxury of open carrying without stares so reholstering is much easier for me. But a civilian has some rules of engagement as well. I am confident when I say if you were to kill a child while running away and shooting blindly behind you, you will become intimately involved in the legal system. Yes, that whole "tried by 12 not carried by 6" thing. What I'm suggesting is, based on what I've learned so far about that technique, there are other techniques that would work as well without opening yourself up to a legal battle. Or at least giving you the best possible chance of winning the legal battle.

    Again, all good and fair points. I can only implore to you and the others this is but one technique in a plethora of techniques for multitudes if not countless types of defense. Guns, knives, bats, pipe wrenches, swords, martial arts, etc., etc, and on, and on. Like many techniques in many different DVD's, classes, training exercises, not all are sound or completely effective. The threat scenario is often times fluid. And as I said, I may object to some of them too. Jokes are made on here all the time about this douche or that moron and their really silly possibly dangerous training or bad advice. Tomato - tomoto. However, in the end, I think this thread exemplifies what this forum could be if we just assume we all really care about each others opinions. And I do hope that any casual BS forum member understands what all of us were trying to impart here.

    There are no arguments here against that make me regret my decision to continue to do this exercise. It may not be the "best" defense, but if it's one defense and it saves my life, I can live with the decision to do it.

    So, we have beaten this one pretty hard.

    The other day I was Bonzai charging my silhouette target at full run while attempting to empty the mag at it, and the rounds misfired after the second shot. What the hell? :D
     

    Emperor

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    I'm also curious if you've ever taken any formal, defensive handgun classes, outside of that from the DVD series.

    What about force on force classes?

    I have not. I may one day. I certainly am not anti-training or anti-education. The single series is not the only series I take in, though. I am sure that having the mental conditioning to stay focused in a force on force encounter when the stakes are life and death is one of the most important aspects of training. Muscle memory and all that too.

    As a whole, the vast majority of CC'ers are not really prepared for a real deadly threat scenario. But, I suppose if we are at least thinking about it, it is better than strapping a gun to your belt and winging it.
     

    AustinBR

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    I have not. I may one day. I certainly am not anti-training or anti-education. The single series is not the only series I take in, though. I am sure that having the mental conditioning to stay focused in a force on force encounter when the stakes are life and death is one of the most important aspects of training. Muscle memory and all that too.

    As a whole, the vast majority of CC'ers are not really prepared for a real deadly threat scenario. But, I suppose if we are at least thinking about it, it is better than strapping a gun to your belt and winging it.

    I get where you're head is at and I think that you are much more prepared than 98 or 99% of those who carry daily, but there is something to be had with formal education.

    I have said it a few times in the past week, but you just can't know what you don't know. Formal classes with a real expert are always going to be better than anything else.

    As for force-on-force training, it really is the way to go for practicing real techniques. There is so much that can be learned by having others firing at you and moving towards cover.
     

    jdavid1

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    I have not. I may one day.

    Lol. Man, you've been going back and fourth all day about this, and you've NEVER even taken a formal class with an instructor?? You just watch youtube and go out to practice your "drills"??? Then come on here and talk about ammo being an issue when you're trying to limp wrist blind ninja sprint shoot. Seriously, go take a defensive pistol class.
     

    Emperor

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    Lol. Man, you've been going back and fourth all day about this, and you've NEVER even taken a formal class with an instructor?? You just watch youtube and go out to practice your "drills"??? Then come on here and talk about ammo being an issue when you're trying to limp wrist blind ninja sprint shoot. Seriously, go take a defensive pistol class.

    That is correct! I have said on many occasions that USPSA matches and practices are far more effective training than nothing at all. I would even say that it is better than some hack training out there. Where does one get a degree in becoming an effective self defense trainer? USPSA shooting is most assuredly far better than the bravado I hear on here sometimes. I have learned a butt load of things from that discipline alone. You assume that whatever defensive training class or classes you may have taken prepare you more than me to successfully defend ourselves. That is an extremely bold and pompous assumption.

    And you are name calling again. A cogent argument (or suggestion), is diminished when an arguer does that. Don't worry, I can take it! But it dresses ugly. I love backhanded comments when in the right context, but you seem to be perturbed that I didn't immediately embrace your train of thought.

    Go back and read what has been stated. Whether I had formal training or not holds absolutely no bearing on what I am stating or what I am trying to impart. It doesn't make you invincible because you may have, and it most assuredly doesn't make me any more vulnerable because I may have not. Anything else is speculative and hypothetical at best. ;)
     
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