It's Your Ammo Not Your Pistol!

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  • Emperor

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    We've all probably shot ammunition at times, that was inexpensive, cheaply made, re-manufactured, or whatever. I certainly have throughout my life. Still do! I still use inexpensive ammo when I shoot USPSA matches. Full disclosure, my primary EDC pistol is not the same as the pistol I was using for USPSA. That in itself is not unusual either. Guys that use race guns out there, obviously aren't carrying those pistols EDC. But the merits of using your primary EDC weapon versus a comp. gun at matches is for another discussion.

    I want to share an incident that will help anyone that may not know as much about pistol functionality or ammo/firearm relationships and how important that synergy can be.

    Recently, I was performing an exercise with my EDC Primary (Glock 19 Gen 4), known as, "moving off the x, and shooting (at the assailant), on the run." I was using some inexpensive re-manufactured 110 gr cartridges from a place called Delta Precision. After all, ammo is expensive when you are just throwing lead around for hours. Likewise, if you don't reload, competition eats up ammo too. Have family that shoots too, you betcha; more ammo needed. So we all know it can be expensive.

    On this day and on this drill, I drew and shot once from from full draw as I was preparing my escape. The idea of the drill is to continue to fire at the threat while creating distance and to improve accuracy in doing so. As I took my first step I fired again, and there was only crickets! My gun had misfired. Reset, and tried again. First shot fine, second shot ok, third; more crickets. This continued and had me semi-perplexed. The gun was clean, and in great working order. What the hell was going wrong? I could stand still and fire through a full magazine one after another without fail. Even in competition, those same cartridges (in another pistol), worked fine. The only difference? Running versus standing still.

    I had a shooting buddy with me that day and he was performing the same drill with no issues?!? He was using an old Browning 9mm. He was using different ammo too. Magtech 115g in the blue box. We exchanged ammo, I revisited the drill and no issues. Not a single hitch. What I first suspected was a pistol issue indeed turned out to be an ammo issue. But why? After all, the ammo worked fine in both pistols while line firing?!? And any other pistols for that matter.

    I turned to a tried and true method to find out why; I called Glock in Smyrna and asked to speak to a gun guru. His name was Dan. Here is the gist of our conversation. I related the above story to him. He offered a few observations that I found interesting. On the line firing versus running, he told me that when line firing, a stiff two hand hold on the pistol makes a big difference on the action of a cartridge to fully reset the slide and the next round. Even with less powerful loads. The cheaper rounds are surely less powerful than factory rounds, and the subtle difference between a firm two hand grip and my running shooting with one hand would make a difference. Those Magtechs were certainly much more powerful loads than what I had. He admitted that over time, I could get better with the firmness of the one hand grip, and could most likely use the cheaper rounds, but he asked why do that? He said what I knew was coming next; are these the same rounds that are currently in your weapon now? Of course not, I said. These are for farting around and wasting ammo with. He asked the next question I also knew was coming. Is that is your primary service weapon? Yes, I said. Why train with anything other than what you carry with you? I told him the standard reply, money. These Hornady Critical Defense bullets are almost $1.00 apiece. He understood, but he said the gun obviously runs better in that exercise with a better bullet. And if you are training with that gun to better the scenario of your safety and self defense, well you know what the answer is. And I do!

    Without sounding like a dick, I can afford shooting a lot of expensive ammo. But a lot of people can't, and a lot of people don't. If I ran that drill 10 times in one session, that could be as much as 5-10 rounds each time. That could be as much as $100 on just that one drill alone. I don't care how much money you have, that's a lot of Hornady Critical Defense bullets. Nonetheless, if you are going to commit to your prevailing an armed conflict, you have to consider this story.

    We already know that certain guns like certain ammo. We know that we should try to simulate training to match what we EDC. All of us know how expensive all this can be! But in the end, we need to bite the bullet! :mamoru: Train with what you are carrying, and use the ammo you will use if that unfortunate day ever comes. Your life may likely depend on it.

    That night I ordered 20 boxes of Hornady Critical Defense :eek3: For? You guessed it!

    I hope this helps some of you out there!
     
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    jdavid1

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    I use Delta Precision reman ammo for USPSA when I don't have the time to reload my own. I've only had one issue out of probably around 2000rds. from them. I could maybe see a limp wrist problem since they are loaded pretty light to make just over power factor. That being said, USPSA is a moving/shooting sport. You don't always have the perfect grip when shooting at targets. If people were having ammo issues due to under powered rounds I think Delta Precision wouldn't be such a recommended brand in the sport.

    It sounds like you need to work on your grip or change out the recoil spring, but if you want to spend $$$$ to practice with Hornady you go ahead and do you brother.
     

    DAVE_M

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    The majority of malfunctions will be ammunition related. The next most common issues would be magazine related if using quality ammunition.

    I have had less than a dozen malfunctions with near 10,000 rounds of CCI Blazer Brass 115 & 124 gr. I have experienced zero issues with Speer Lawman 124 gr.

    Precision Delta is supposed to be good ammo.
     

    Emperor

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    I use Delta Precision reman ammo for USPSA when I don't have the time to reload my own. I've only had one issue out of probably around 2000rds. from them. I could maybe see a limp wrist problem since they are loaded pretty light to make just over power factor. That being said, USPSA is a moving/shooting sport. You don't always have the perfect grip when shooting at targets. If people were having ammo issues due to under powered rounds I think Delta Precision wouldn't be such a recommended brand in the sport.

    It sounds like you need to work on your grip or change out the recoil spring, but if you want to spend $$$$ to practice with Hornady you go ahead and do you brother.

    I too have shot USPSA matches. No issues with the Delta's, and in multiple pistols. I stated that! But no competitor in USPSA matches is running simultaneously while actually firing the gun. If you want to score well, you have to take the mili-seconds AFTER you stop running from the last target, to aim and then fire. In the drill I am executing I am running full speed away from my threat, and firing back at it, while watching where I am running so as not to fall and be subsequently executed! It is not a drill that is inherently easy just because you are good with a gun, or because you shoot USPSA matches. I am exceptional with a gun. I actually quoted the Glock "Expert" who admitted that a better grip could be achieved with practice. He never thought once about me changing the factory spring on my 19. I admitted that buying defense ammo is expensive to train with. What else can I say?

    I encountered what I thought was a serious issue with my primary weapon during a very non-routine training exercise and I think I have learned from that experience. If you ever trained with me on this particular exercise, and you shot perfectly fine while standing still on the firing line, but had issues on this particular drill, I would not be looking at your pistol for answers.

    Knowledge is power! Educating those who may less informed is a good thing. This forum is partly for firearms enthusiasts to share experiences, impart knowledge and wisdom, and maybe learn something. ;)
     

    Emperor

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    Precision Delta is supposed to be good ammo.

    Seems to be. I use it all the time. I have tons of it. This is the only time on this specific drill that I have encountered such an incident with this ammo. Even tried a different box.
     
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    Emperor

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    Wait what....

    You are not actually pulling the trigger while you are actually running from each position. You may be shooting as you are falling out of the boundaries for overcompensating your momentum on the last postion, but you ARE NOT doing both at the same time. I have shot dozens of matches and have NEVER seen any of the people in my squad, even the best guys, do that!

    I know there are videos posted on this site in the archives from a lot of USPSA guys that use to come here. I bet you would be hard pressed to find one that opposes my viewpoint.

    Additionally, were there misfires there? Stove pipe jams? Unsecured mags falling? Yes. All of that!
     
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    DAVE_M

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    You are not actually pulling the trigger while you are actually running from each position. You may be shooting as you are falling out of the boundaries for overcompensating your momentum on the last postion, but you ARE NOT doing both at the same time. I have shot dozens of matches and have NEVER seen any of the people in my squad, even the best guys, do that!

    I know there are videos posted on this site in the archives from a lot of USPSA guys that use to come here. I bet you would be hard pressed to find one that opposes my viewpoint.

    Additionally, were there misfires there? Stove pipe jams? Unsecured mags falling? Yes. All of that!

    Are you saying that at no point ever, in any match, are top competitors shooting AND moving at the same time?
     

    Emperor

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    Are you saying that at no point ever, in any match, are top competitors shooting AND moving at the same time?

    I am telling you that I have personally never witnessed a shooter taking shots at any targets while on a "full run" in a USPSA match. NEVER! I'll go one further, I have never seen it on tv (Shooting USA), either. World champions!

    I am responding to the USPSA aspect only because there is a subtle similarity in moving off the x, and moving from position to position in a match. But in no uncertain terms are they the same!
     

    DAVE_M

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    I am telling you that I have personally never witnessed a shooter taking shots at any targets while on a "full run" in a USPSA match. NEVER! I'll go one further, I have never seen it on tv (Shooting USA), either. World champions!

    I am responding to the USPSA aspect only because there is a subtle similarity in moving off the x, and moving from position to position in a match. But in no uncertain terms are they the same!

    I think the discrepancy here is what is defined as a "full run."

    USPSA competitors will absolutely be moving AND shooting if they want to be faster.

     

    Emperor

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    I think the discrepancy here is what is defined as a "full run."

    USPSA competitors will absolutely be moving AND shooting if they want to be faster.



    That was an exceptional run! That is way above average. He was always shooting in the forward position, and he was not being obstructed in the middle of the run by barriers, nets, walls, etc,

    Now to conclude the discussion about USPSA versus the training exercise. Moving off the x requires you to haul ass AWAY (as your back to your target), running as fast as you can, shooting behind you (actually trying to either hit your threat or suppress it with fire), and watching where you are running. IT IS NOT USPSA! They do not do that! If you want to train that way, get a membership in USPSA.

    Let's move on.
     

    Emperor

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    Emperor, where are you shooting these matches at and what Divison/Class are you shooting?

    Wait, what? My boy is back?

    Paroled? :rofl:

    Welcome back man!

    I shot many at the Ascension Sheriff's Range. Some in Mississippi. I shoot in production. It's been a while.
     

    DAVE_M

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    That was an exceptional run! That is way above average. He was always shooting in the forward position, and he was not being obstructed in the middle of the run by barriers, nets, walls, etc,

    Now to conclude the discussion about USPSA versus the training exercise. Moving off the x requires you to haul ass AWAY (as your back to your target), running as fast as you can, shooting behind you (actually trying to either hit your threat or suppress it with fire), and watching where you are running. IT IS NOT USPSA! They do not do that! If you want to train that way, get a membership in USPSA.

    Let's move on.

    I'm just trying to clarify if you're attempting to pass your observation of local competitors as a generalized fact about all competitors.

    Where did you learn to "move off the X?"
     

    Emperor

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    I'm just trying to clarify if you're attempting to pass your observation of local competitors as a generalized fact about all competitors.

    Where did you learn to "move off the X?"

    I stated unequivocally that USPSA shooters, while in a match, DO NOT SHOOT IN A MANNER as this drill I am executing. There is nothing else to avow!

    nee50e7hfc3zdc70lqe5.jpg


    I stay on this guy's mailing list and watch his training vids. Good stuff.

    I did a full and comprehensive review of this set on here somewhere.
     

    thperez1972

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    But no competitor in USPSA matches is running simultaneously while actually firing the gun.

    You are not actually pulling the trigger while you are actually running from each position. You may be shooting as you are falling out of the boundaries for overcompensating your momentum on the last postion, but you ARE NOT doing both at the same time.

    That was an exceptional run! That is way above average. He was always shooting in the forward position, and he was not being obstructed in the middle of the run by barriers, nets, walls, etc,

    Sorry...I'm trying to follow along. At no point will a competitor shoot while running. They never pull the trigger while they running. But if they do, they're shooting in the forward position?

    Now to conclude the discussion about USPSA versus the training exercise. Moving off the x requires you to haul ass AWAY (as your back to your target), running as fast as you can, shooting behind you (actually trying to either hit your threat or suppress it with fire), and watching where you are running. IT IS NOT USPSA! They do not do that! If you want to train that way, get a membership in USPSA.

    Let's move on.

    I'm a little confused about your drill. It seems you run full speed away from the threat while firing at the threat. If I understand that correctly, you are either running blind because you are facing the threat to ensure your shots aren't wildly off target or you're watching where you are going while sending rounds in the general area of the threat. In the first, you greatly increase the chance of ending up on the ground. (I'm assuming you train for shooting from the ground in case [for when] this happens.) Or you're not even attempting to ensure anyone around the threat isn't harmed and you're not accounting for the fact the threat may "move off the x."

    Am I missing something here?
     

    thperez1972

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    I stated unequivocally that USPSA shooters, while in a match, DO NOT SHOOT IN A MANNER as this drill I am executing. There is nothing else to avow!


    I stay on this guy's mailing list and watch his training vids. Good stuff.

    I did a full and comprehensive review of this set on here somewhere.

    Actually, you did not limit the scope of your statements until later. You said they don't shoot while running and they never pull the trigger while running.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I stated unequivocally that USPSA shooters, while in a match, DO NOT SHOOT IN A MANNER as this drill I am executing. There is nothing else to avow!

    nee50e7hfc3zdc70lqe5.jpg


    I stay on this guy's mailing list and watch his training vids. Good stuff.

    I did a full and comprehensive review of this set on here somewhere.

    Who is "this guy?" I don't see an author or instructor name on that box.

    I'm rather confused about the drill you are trying to explain.

    Are you running uprange while shooting over your shoulder or shooting strong hand only downrange?
     

    Emperor

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    Sorry...I'm trying to follow along. At no point will a competitor shoot while running. They never pull the trigger while they running. But if they do, they're shooting in the forward position?



    I'm a little confused about your drill. It seems you run full speed away from the threat while firing at the threat. If I understand that correctly, you are either running blind because you are facing the threat to ensure your shots aren't wildly off target or you're watching where you are going while sending rounds in the general area of the threat. In the first, you greatly increase the chance of ending up on the ground. (I'm assuming you train for shooting from the ground in case [for when] this happens.) Or you're not even attempting to ensure anyone around the threat isn't harmed and you're not accounting for the fact the threat may "move off the x."

    Am I missing something here?

    Actually, you did not limit the scope of your statements until later. You said they don't shoot while running and they never pull the trigger while running.

    Do some of you guys realize that this is partly why there are less discussions on here about firearms content, and instead this site looks like Gun Broker? Gee whiz! Semantics, grammar, spelling, whatever. There may actually be some people who would like to participate in a discussion about firearms that may not be as smart, brilliant, cock-sure, experienced, witty, articulate, and all the other superlatives, but are missing out because they don't want to be called out for some inane BS.

    Come on guys! Every time I log on I see less and less teaching and learning and more berating and browbeating.

    Prez, you and Dave are smart guys; but let these other people breathe a little. If you guys are that proficient in everything to do with firearms you should have your own training schools, and/or firearms websites. My sole purpose was to offer a perspective on an experience I had while training. In case you may have missed it, I have said on here many times, browbeating me is a huge waste of time! I don't care!
     

    Emperor

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    Who is "this guy?" I don't see an author or instructor name on that box.

    I'm rather confused about the drill you are trying to explain.

    Are you running uprange while shooting over your shoulder or shooting strong hand only downrange?

    Dave! Stop! See post #19
     
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