place of worship carry

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  • met7881

    Former Yankee
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    Feb 26, 2013
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    mandeville,La.
    Lets throw this out for discussion. I understand in the CCW regulation concealed carry in a place of worship is currently forbidden. Unless the place of worhship goes through some "hoops" to allow concealed carry. Without getting into the "hoops" involved the question I have is how can the State government mandate any carry restrictions in a private "business" ( which a place of worship" is) . I would think it should be up to the "place of worship" to decide whether or not to allow concealed carry without any "hoops" to go through. For example, Walmart does not have a prohibition regarding concealed carry. They can post a sign not allowing. But the business decides, not the state. Places of worship are in fact private places of " business" . Bars are a little different since alcohol is involved and a state liquor license is required.
     

    El Pozzinator

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    Jul 29, 2012
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    Denham springs LA
    Most houses of worship aren’t classified for tax purposes as “businesses” but as “nonprofits”. And they operate more closely to a club with unrestricted access (ie you don’t have to be an official member to come in, but becoming one may or may not provide additional access).

    https://aliengearholsters.com/blog/church-concealed-carry/

    A lot of houses of worship nowadays are retaining uniformed and/or plainclothes security in response to events during recent years, and it’s not limited to any specific line of belief or denomination.

    Personally I think it falls to the preamble for justification: we should be allowed to preserve life while exercising our liberty to pursue happiness. That said, I can certainly see justification for restricting it: if some nutjob comes in, you can’t just have several dozen congregants all trying to return fire. That’s waaaaaay too many muzzles waving around in a room chock full of squishy targets and lets face it, nowhere near enough CCW holders take it seriously enough to maintain their equipment and proficiency.

    Sure it might be that most of the keyboard commandos here “think” they’re proficient shooters, and a statistically significant portion of them may well be. But would YOU be comfortable with a bunch of folks you don’t know waving around CCW firearms (typically small, infrequently practiced with, and not designed for precision) when you and your family might be between them and their target, which may be as much as 40-50 feet apart?


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    Slalom.45

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    Jan 10, 2013
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    Lafayette, LA
    It is not up to "the state", it is up to the particular church to allow legal carry on it's grounds. The state has even removed the "additional 8 hours of training" that was originally a requirement.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Dec 28, 2015
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    The name of the category to which churches belong should not be important as the entire category is not regulated in Louisiana. I can't believe the density or number of people could the factor in the decision to regulate places of worship. If it were, it would only be logical to extend that restriction to other entities that attract a number of people such as movie theaters and shopping malls.

    To the OP, the law makes it seem the church does have the final say with very limited hoops. It's listed as a prohibited location but refers to the section quoted below. It says (1) the church can allow anyone with a permit to carry if (3) they notify the congregation and if (4) that carrying isn't on any school property. The church (2) is allowed to hire a detail or allow volunteers. The last paragraph (5) is interesting. The business shall require an additional 8 hours of training if the entity in charge of the business requires it. It seems those 8 hours are not required by the state. It appears the state will enforce an 8 hour requirement mandated by the church. Looking at the law, unless I really missed something, it looks like it's possible for a place of worship could allow any of its members to carry concealed as long as they announce it to the congregation. And the law doesn't list any requirements for that announcement. It could be announced during a sermon and not mentioned again. It could be a note in a newsletter.


    U.(1) The entity which owns the business or has authority over the administration of a church, synagogue, or mosque shall have the authority to authorize any person issued a valid concealed handgun permit as authorized by the provisions of this Section to carry a concealed handgun in the church, synagogue, or mosque.
    (2) The provisions of this Subsection shall not be construed to limit or prohibit any church, synagogue, or mosque from employing or designating as armed security guards persons who are either certified law enforcement officers or authorized to carry concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Section. Armed security guards as provided in this Paragraph may be compensated, noncompensated, or volunteers.
    (3) If the church, synagogue, or mosque authorizes the carrying of concealed handguns as authorized by the provisions of this Subsection, the pastor, priest, minister, or other authority of the church, synagogue, or mosque shall inform the congregation of the authorization.
    (4) The provisions of this Section shall not be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed handgun in a church, synagogue, or mosque located on the property of any school or school property, which would otherwise be prohibited by the provisions of R.S. 14:95.2.
    (5) Any church, synagogue, or mosque authorizing the carrying of concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Subsection shall require an additional eight hours of tactical training for those persons wishing to carry concealed handguns in the church, synagogue, or mosque if required by the entity which has authority over the religious organization pursuant to Paragraph (1) of this Subsection or by the owner of the building's liability insurance policy. The training shall be conducted annually.
     

    DAVE_M

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    It is not up to "the state", it is up to the particular church to allow legal carry on it's grounds. The state has even removed the "additional 8 hours of training" that was originally a requirement.

    It's a requirement if the church, synagogue, or mosque requires it.

    RS 40:1379.3

    U.(1) The entity which owns the business or has authority over the administration of a church, synagogue, or mosque shall have the authority to authorize any person issued a valid concealed handgun permit as authorized by the provisions of this Section to carry a concealed handgun in the church, synagogue, or mosque.

    (2) The provisions of this Subsection shall not be construed to limit or prohibit any church, synagogue, or mosque from employing or designating as armed security guards persons who are either certified law enforcement officers or authorized to carry concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Section. Armed security guards as provided in this Paragraph may be compensated, noncompensated, or volunteers.

    (3) If the church, synagogue, or mosque authorizes the carrying of concealed handguns as authorized by the provisions of this Subsection, the pastor, priest, minister, or other authority of the church, synagogue, or mosque shall inform the congregation of the authorization.

    (4) The provisions of this Section shall not be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed handgun in a church, synagogue, or mosque located on the property of any school or school property, which would otherwise be prohibited by the provisions of R.S. 14:95.2.

    (5) Any church, synagogue, or mosque authorizing the carrying of concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Subsection shall require an additional eight hours of tactical training for those persons wishing to carry concealed handguns in the church, synagogue, or mosque if required by the entity which has authority over the religious organization pursuant to Paragraph (1) of this Subsection or by the owner of the building's liability insurance policy. The training shall be conducted annually.

    https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/BillInfo.aspx?s=18RS&b=SB402&sbi=y

    http://www.legis.la.gov/Legis/ViewDocument.aspx?d=1101444
     

    DAVE_M

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    how can the State government mandate any carry restrictions in a private "business"

    This is the real question, which is irrelevant to carrying in a church.

    If you're curious how the state government can mandate restrictions to private businesses, you should brush up on the legalese of business and legislation.

    Places of worship are in fact private places of " business" . Bars are a little different since alcohol is involved and a state liquor license is required.

    Churches fall under 501c3 organizations per the IRS.

    https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...ns/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations

    https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations

    Establishments that sell alcohol, corporate retail businesses, and 501c3 organizations are not even remotely similar.
     

    kingfhb

    NRA & USCCA INST. w/ LSP#
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    Mar 28, 2014
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    New Orleans, LA
    The name of the category to which churches belong should not be important as the entire category is not regulated in Louisiana. I can't believe the density or number of people could the factor in the decision to regulate places of worship. If it were, it would only be logical to extend that restriction to other entities that attract a number of people such as movie theaters and shopping malls.

    To the OP, the law makes it seem the church does have the final say with very limited hoops. It's listed as a prohibited location but refers to the section quoted below. It says (1) the church can allow anyone with a permit to carry if (3) they notify the congregation and if (4) that carrying isn't on any school property. The church (2) is allowed to hire a detail or allow volunteers. The last paragraph (5) is interesting. The business shall require an additional 8 hours of training if the entity in charge of the business requires it. It seems those 8 hours are not required by the state. It appears the state will enforce an 8 hour requirement mandated by the church. Looking at the law, unless I really missed something, it looks like it's possible for a place of worship could allow any of its members to carry concealed as long as they announce it to the congregation. And the law doesn't list any requirements for that announcement. It could be announced during a sermon and not mentioned again. It could be a note in a newsletter.


    U.(1) The entity which owns the business or has authority over the administration of a church, synagogue, or mosque shall have the authority to authorize any person issued a valid concealed handgun permit as authorized by the provisions of this Section to carry a concealed handgun in the church, synagogue, or mosque.
    (2) The provisions of this Subsection shall not be construed to limit or prohibit any church, synagogue, or mosque from employing or designating as armed security guards persons who are either certified law enforcement officers or authorized to carry concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Section. Armed security guards as provided in this Paragraph may be compensated, noncompensated, or volunteers.
    (3) If the church, synagogue, or mosque authorizes the carrying of concealed handguns as authorized by the provisions of this Subsection, the pastor, priest, minister, or other authority of the church, synagogue, or mosque shall inform the congregation of the authorization.
    (4) The provisions of this Section shall not be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed handgun in a church, synagogue, or mosque located on the property of any school or school property, which would otherwise be prohibited by the provisions of R.S. 14:95.2.
    (5) Any church, synagogue, or mosque authorizing the carrying of concealed handguns pursuant to the provisions of this Subsection shall require an additional eight hours of tactical training for those persons wishing to carry concealed handguns in the church, synagogue, or mosque if required by the entity which has authority over the religious organization pursuant to Paragraph (1) of this Subsection or by the owner of the building's liability insurance policy. The training shall be conducted annually.



    I thought the "forbidden to carry" in houses of worship was no longer valid in Louisiana? Isn't that why the "Level II" certification (additional 8 hours of training), permitting the carrying of firearms in certain places, was done away with?

    Meaning it then falls under the everyday concealed carry guidelines? If there's a sign, don't go. Or is it that they did away with the additional training requirement?

    The last time I took the Level II training, they told us it was no longer necessary since the change to the law passed. So please correct me if I am wrong.
     
    Last edited:

    DAVE_M

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    I thought the "forbidden to carry" in houses of worship was no longer valid in Louisiana? Isn't that why the "Level II" certification (additional 8 hours of training), permitting the carrying of firearms in certain places, was done away with?

    Meaning it then falls under the everyday concealed carry guidelines? If there's a sign, don't go. Or is it that they did away with the additional training requirement?

    The last time I took the Level II training, they told us it was no longer necessary since the change to the law passed. So please correct me if I am wrong.

    The additional training is unnecessary if the insurance policy doesn't require it.
     

    dougstump

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    The church we occasionally go to over in Texas actually wants people to carry! I saw another gentleman carrying in a belt holster (before he put his coat on), so I asked. The Deacon looked at my LA permit (and retired military ID) and said they would be pleased if I carried. So I went back to the truck and stuck the S&W in my pocket. Feels weird carrying in church!
     

    BlueShamu

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    Oct 21, 2015
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    D'town
    Asked the last Church we attended what did I need to do to carry in Church. Simple response was bring us a copy of your CHP. They thanked me and that was that.


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    met7881

    Former Yankee
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    Feb 26, 2013
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    mandeville,La.
    Once the "church" votes or authorizes members to carry, liability is there for them. Again, even though the church may be classified as a non profit, do you think "places of worship" should be singled out for any special requirements? Other non profits are not. I'm trying to get the church I go to, just to vote that this church has no prohibition on concealed carry, members or visitors. With this the church is I believe does not have any liability exposure.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    Here you go:

    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...hipping-moonie-church-thats-trying-to-go-maga

    ("My religion requires me to be armed at all times" (Combine the 1A's Freedom of Religion with the 2A.)) Choke on that, liberals!

    WTF? Gold plated bullet crowns,Gold plated AR's,The preacher is making way too much money to begin with!

    I have known some preachers that need to be armed and wear bullet proof vest's,

    Simply because every so often the preacher cut's a lamb out of the flock and the real owner comes in not making a verbal protest,

    Instead doing a mag dump on said preacher and wanting his lamb with the morals of an ally-cat back!
     
    Last edited:

    DAVE_M

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    Apr 17, 2009
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    Once the "church" votes or authorizes members to carry, liability is there for them. Again, even though the church may be classified as a non profit, do you think "places of worship" should be singled out for any special requirements? Other non profits are not. I'm trying to get the church I go to, just to vote that this church has no prohibition on concealed carry, members or visitors. With this the church is I believe does not have any liability exposure.

    I don't think you understand...

    There are no special requirements unless the building's insurance policy requires it.
     
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