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  • blackboltss

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    Jul 5, 2010
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    Hey everyone!

    I finally pulled the trigger on getting into the AR game. I have been an AK fan from the beginning but I had the itch to buy a new gun do I decided to go with an AR platform. Just to see if I like it more than my beloved AKs.

    So... Little to no experience with AR's and AR ammo.
    I know there is a difference between 223 and 5.56, from what I gather most use the .223 for the range and the 5.56 for business.
    Will using .223 hurt the barrel? Am I going to have issues running the cheapest ammo I can find at the range like with my Aks?

    What is a good "home defense" round/brand/type for defense use?

    What's the biggest difference I will see between the AR and AK platforms?

    Any other tips/advice for my first AR?
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Congrats !
    Yes you can have both. I like both. I think there are too many folks who refuse to appreciate the AK and the AR simultaneously.
    5.56 or .223 is fine in the AR. Different bullet weights And accuracy depend on different twist rates. There are 3 rates commonly sold. 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9 with the first (fastest) doing better with the heavier bullets (75 and 77gr being the most popular for match ammo) the latter and slowest twist is better for the screaming fast 55gr and lighter, and the 1:8 barrel being the best of both worlds, so to speak.
    You’ll find better pricing in the 5.56 surplus market generally for good ammo while .223 offers better (more) varmint and hunting options as well as self defense ammo.

    I like the FBI loads by federal for straight up home defense but there’s no denying that most ballistic tip .223 is a good choice as well considering you’d be working at point blank range inside a home. Federal makes 55gr, 45gr and even lighter varmint ammo that practically explodes in meat at close range. I’ve seen them turn a crow into a feather storm and so forth.
    Biggest difference in platforms? Well, way more aftermarket and options for the AR.
    Calibers, configurations, heck, AR’s today don’t even have to be produced by a gun manufacturer. You can get a lower and build one using parts from many manufacturers of aftermarket parts and not have any real gun manufacturer’s markings.

    ***Truth be told, aside from some roll pins, detents and springs, every part on the AR has been improved, redone, redesigned, and mass produced by many aftermarket companies.***

    If I was about to buy my first AR, I’d go to Palmetto State Armory and buy a ready upper and matching lower for about $350 and go from there. (Lifetime warranty and good customer service) if I didn’t like it I’d sell it for about the sticker price. If I liked it, I could change anything I didn’t like about it.

    Hope I answered a couple questions. Good luck
     
    Last edited:

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    I forgot to mention how they’re one of the easiest to build rifles from completely separate parts. Way easier than building an AK, although building one from a stamped blank is pretty rewarding. I have a feeling that if you like the AK for what it is, you’ll like the AR for the same reason.
     

    blackboltss

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    Thanks for the Information! I am defiantly excited about this platform. Its like an LS motor, so may aftermarket things to be done!

    For my 1st AR, I went ahead and got a Springfield saint (pistol).

    The thing I'm most worried/concerned about is there is so many things with the AR. As far as cleaning, oiling, lubing, so many small pieces. With The AK if you need lube, just spit on it, maybe hit it with a hammer and you're good to go. That's the reason I initially wanted to go with the AK was the reliability aspect of the weapon.

    If I enjoy the AR, my next one i'll build. I just wanted to get familiar with the platform first.

    So what's the best/cheapest plinking ammo? I'm not really a hunter, we do have coyotes on the land so it might get used for that also. Honestly, I'll most likely be using the 7n6 ammo for that :)

    And the FBI ammo will be good to go for "home defense"?
    Honestly, my bedside gun is my 12guage. Hard to beat a good old fashion shotgun for up close and personal.
     

    machinedrummer

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    It’s a trap! Like Sheriff Buford T. Justice would say, *You can think about it...but dooon’t do it*. Lol good luck to ya. It’s Build a Bear for men.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Plinking ammo for me is most anything 5.56 or .223 FMJ in a brass case. Right now that runs as low as 28-30 cents per round on average.
    You can do steel cased Wolf or Tula for as low as 16-17 cents per round (average) and many folks swear its fine. I prefer to leave that alone especially if it’s lacquer coated or poly coated.
    And +1 on the shotty for home defense.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    a9ddfe0b07feb5e958d04c4405f34181.jpg



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    jdindadell

    Not Banned!!!
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    As far as "defensive" ammo for rifles go....

    I have a feeling regular 556/223 55 grain will be plenty to use on an attacker at close range. Likely to go right through, so keep that in mind if you plan to use it in the house. Not sure if there is any expanding or other ammo that will not over penetrate made for ar. Speed would have to be quite slow and bullet weight would need to be higher to get any effect. Maybe subsonic 223? Seems like the wrong round to expect that kind of performance, as it runs fast and makes a small hole. Something like 300 black out subsonic, 220gr at 900fps would be a better candidate for a non penetrating round. Or 45acp, 230gr and 900fps, those generally don't go all the way through.

    I have a 7.5" ar pistol in 556 for "around the house" use. I just have 55gr in it, and can expect 2300-2400 fps. Good to 200yrs, maybe not with me behind it, but plenty for my usage. Only issue is noise, I can imagine it would be "entertaining" in a closed room. 300blk or 45acp with a suppressor seem to be a better idea for an "inside" setup.

    As far a strictly home defense gun goes, I cannot see a better item that a 9mm handgun with a weapon light, and supplement with a handheld light if the home has other residents.

    As far a differences in the platforms go, the ar is more ergonomic, has a last round bolt hold open, straight in mags, and is less likely to cut you when running it hard. 223 has less recoil than x39, but more than 5.45 in the 74. Swapping most parts is much easier on the ar.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Will using .223 hurt the barrel?

    No.

    You can fire .223 in a 5.56 barrel, but can't fire 5.56 in a .223 barrel, unless it's a .223 wylde chambered barrel.

    Rarely will you find a .223 barrel that isn't a .223 wylde chamber. Commerical AR's have mostly faded from existence.

    Am I going to have issues running the cheapest ammo I can find at the range like with my Aks?

    Not necessarily, but even Wolf sells brass cased .223 for cheap, so I see no reason to mess with junk ammo.

    What is a good "home defense" round/brand/type for defense use?

    Federal, Speer, and Hornady make ammunition for the application.

    What's the biggest difference I will see between the AR and AK platforms?

    Ergonomics, modularity, and efficiency.

    Any other tips/advice for my first AR?

    Don't attempt to build one. I was once in the "build don't buy" crowd, but you get more bang for your buck buying a quality carbine the first go around. There are a lot of specialty tools to purchase if you plan to start putting them together properly. Cobbling guns together without ensuring every part is correct is a recipe for disaster.

    Do your research and don't rush out and buy something. Although some people here would highly disagree with me, I highly suggest you avoid brands like Palmetto State Armory, Radical Firearms, OMNI, S&W, Ruger, Aero Precision and other cheaply manufactured rifles. A quality rifle will run you in the $1000 range. If you want something lesser as a hobby rifle, they can be had cheaper, but I wouldn't have that in my house as a home defense weapon.
     

    DAVE_M

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    For my 1st AR, I went ahead and got a Springfield saint (pistol).

    I should have read the entirety of the thread prior to responding. I wish you luck with your SAINT pistol. I've not had the best experiences with them.

    The thing I'm most worried/concerned about is there is so many things with the AR. As far as cleaning, oiling, lubing, so many small pieces. With The AK if you need lube, just spit on it, maybe hit it with a hammer and you're good to go. That's the reason I initially wanted to go with the AK was the reliability aspect of the weapon.

    Shoot your rifle. It doesn't need to be cleaned after each use. Contrary to popular belief, AR's will run for a long time with nothing more than period lubrication.

    If I enjoy the AR, my next one i'll build. I just wanted to get familiar with the platform first.

    Do your homework, you will end up amassing many tools.
     

    jdindadell

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    Feb 14, 2010
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    Do your homework, you will end up amassing many tools.

    This will happen!!!

    I started building ar rifles about 7 yrs ago. There are some newly introduced tools that are much better than the older options. Magpul make an action wrench and a bev block, those are must haves in my opinion.

    The magpul action wrench was not available at the time I started and I went through a few different barrel nut wrench options before settling on the usgi type (small thing that uses a 1/2 breaker bar/torque wrench).

    Same thing with vise blocks for the upper receiver, so far the magpul bev block is my favorite, works well most of the time. If you do pistol caliber builds you will need something else to hold the upper when tightening the barrel nut.

    Assembling a lower receiver and buying a pre built upper is one way to save from having to buy tools, however I always tear down a pre built upper enough to be able to check the barrel nut and make sure the gas system is lined up correctly.

    assembling a lower does not really require many special tools, although it does require some special skills... here is what I use:

    roll pin starter punches (these have a cup on the end to keep the roll pin in line when getting it started in the hole)
    roll pin punches (these have a small "tit" on the end to keep the punch lined up with the roll pin)
    Irvin channel lock style pliers (I use these to "press" the roll pins in, instead of hammering, then i use the roll pin punch to finish the last half mm or so)
    glock assembly tool (nice to have to line up the hammer and trigger parts while pushing the axis pins in)
    generic m4 castle nut wrench (for the stock nut)
    3/16 hex driver (for the grip screw)
    single edge razor blade (use it to hold down the front detent when installing the take down pin)
    magazine well vise block (not needed but nice to have when tightening the stock nut)

    The upper can be done with most of the same tools, plus an action wrench of some sort.

    Watch alot of videos before committing to buy tools. Plus if you only plan to have one ar, follow Daves advice and spent 1k plus on a good one and move on with your life!!!
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Dec 28, 2015
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    Don't attempt to build one. I was once in the "build don't buy" crowd, but you get more bang for your buck buying a quality carbine the first go around. There are a lot of specialty tools to purchase if you plan to start putting them together properly. Cobbling guns together without ensuring every part is correct is a recipe for disaster.

    Do your research and don't rush out and buy something. Although some people here would highly disagree with me, I highly suggest you avoid brands like Palmetto State Armory, Radical Firearms, OMNI, S&W, Ruger, Aero Precision and other cheaply manufactured rifles. A quality rifle will run you in the $1000 range. If you want something lesser as a hobby rifle, they can be had cheaper, but I wouldn't have that in my house as a home defense weapon.

    :wavey:

    I believe your advice has merit but I would disagree with the blanket statement without conditions. I wouldn't recommend a $350 PSA AR to a first time shooter for home defense but as an entry level familiarization rifle, I believe it has its place. More than likely, it's going to run just fine (once you make sure everything is tightened). And it's a way to test out an unknown area without a large investment. But that also carries with it the understanding that its place is as a range toy. And it would give a new AR shooter a basis for comparison. It's easier to know what direction to go when you have somewhere to start. And if the AR platform is something someone would want to stick with and expand on (you can't have just one) then a $1000+ investment would make more sense.

    I've got a few uppers and lowers from Aero Precision. I can't say I would agree with you on listing them in the cheaply made category. I'm sure you have your reasons and you'll be MORE than happy to share them. They may not be a DD or a BCM but, from my experience, they are well above a PSA or an Anderson.

    Do your homework, you will end up amassing many tools.

    Part of the reason I keep building is because I want to make sure I get my money's worth out of all the tools.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Apr 17, 2009
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    :wavey:

    I believe your advice has merit but I would disagree with the blanket statement without conditions. I wouldn't recommend a $350 PSA AR to a first time shooter for home defense but as an entry level familiarization rifle, I believe it has its place. More than likely, it's going to run just fine (once you make sure everything is tightened). And it's a way to test out an unknown area without a large investment. But that also carries with it the understanding that its place is as a range toy. And it would give a new AR shooter a basis for comparison. It's easier to know what direction to go when you have somewhere to start. And if the AR platform is something someone would want to stick with and expand on (you can't have just one) then a $1000+ investment would make more sense.

    Considering I've had budget tier rifles fall apart in my hands, I would advise against them, even as a range toy.


    I've got a few uppers and lowers from Aero Precision. I can't say I would agree with you on listing them in the cheaply made category. I'm sure you have your reasons and you'll be MORE than happy to share them. They may not be a DD or a BCM but, from my experience, they are well above a PSA or an Anderson.

    I have stripped uppers and lowers. Taking a caliper to them in comparison to a quality upper and lower receiver will show you the issues. My experience with their stripped uppers has been good. The lowers can be hit or miss. Either way, for someone wanting to build a range toy, they are worth every penny. Their other parts are not so much "their" parts and I would not recommend using Aero Precision parts outside of stripper receivers.

    Context is important. The issue is when people believe their range toy is "just as good" as a quality rifle.

    Daniel Defense QA/QC has gone down the bowl. You won't see me recommend them.
     

    DAVE_M

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    assembling a lower does not really require many special tools, although it does require some special skills... here is what I use:

    roll pin starter punches (these have a cup on the end to keep the roll pin in line when getting it started in the hole)
    roll pin punches (these have a small "tit" on the end to keep the punch lined up with the roll pin)
    Irvin channel lock style pliers (I use these to "press" the roll pins in, instead of hammering, then i use the roll pin punch to finish the last half mm or so)
    glock assembly tool (nice to have to line up the hammer and trigger parts while pushing the axis pins in)
    generic m4 castle nut wrench (for the stock nut)
    3/16 hex driver (for the grip screw)
    single edge razor blade (use it to hold down the front detent when installing the take down pin)
    magazine well vise block (not needed but nice to have when tightening the stock nut)

    The upper can be done with most of the same tools, plus an action wrench of some sort.

    For lower receivers, a Wheeler Engineering armorer's block and a set of punches from Brownell's will assemble everything except for the receiver extension. For that I use a magwell block, but I'll be investing in a Geissele Reaction Block to prevent future builds from twisting. A good armorer's wrench and torque wrench are must haves.

    Upper receivers are where specialty tools come into play. Clamshell blocks, reaction rods, barrel vises, gas block jigs, and gauges are not items you will find at the local shop.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Considering I've had budget tier rifles fall apart in my hands, I would advise against them, even as a range toy.




    I have stripped uppers and lowers. Taking a caliper to them in comparison to a quality upper and lower receiver will show you the issues. My experience with their stripped uppers has been good. The lowers can be hit or miss. Either way, for someone wanting to build a range toy, they are worth every penny. Their other parts are not so much "their" parts and I would not recommend using Aero Precision parts outside of stripper receivers.

    Context is important. The issue is when people believe their range toy is "just as good" as a quality rifle.

    Daniel Defense QA/QC has gone down the bowl. You won't see me recommend them.

    My experience differs from yours.
     

    340six

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    I would buy a lower cost factory built basic rifle over a bubba built with bells and whistles
     
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