Your budget AR is not "just as good"

5.45 Shooter · Jan 29, 2020

Parts are parts!
An AR is just a tool to preform a job. That job is to deliver a projectile on target without fail.
And as long as the parts preform as intended the AR will do what it supposed to do, no matter what name is on the part or what price is paid for that part.
The tolerance on parts is variable, if you don't believe that ask anyone that has worked in a QC department.
What is needed for these variable sized parts is a builder that can assemble the parts & get them to work together. Sure anyone can build with perfect parts but perfect from a production line is very rare no matter what your specifications are.
That's why truly custom built guns cost so much because the parts are made just for that gun, most of the time.
Some are just the production parts that everyone can buy but put together by a builder that can take it to another level & fit each part to work with the other parts to preform better. That's what your extra $$ in a gun buys, It's not so much the quality of the parts it's the attention to detail in the assembly that makes the gun better.
So if you are one of those builders that has the talent to assemble a gun paying attention to detail & getting the most quality out of the production parts, you can build a great gun out of cheap parts.
The name on the outside doesn't matter if the quality is not on the inside.

jdindadell · Jan 29, 2020

DAVE_M said:
I think many will agree with that.

Do you?

I will not argue that buying a factory build "quality" gun and shooting it enough to feel comfortable with it is likely the best bet for the vast majority of people, myself included.

jdindadell · Jan 29, 2020

5.45 Shooter said:
Parts are parts!
An AR is just a tool to preform a job. That job is to deliver a projectile on target without fail.
And as long as the parts preform as intended the AR will do what it supposed to do, no matter what name is on the part or what price is paid for that part.
The tolerance on parts is variable, if you don't believe that ask anyone that has worked in a QC department.
What is needed for these variable sized parts is a builder that can assemble the parts & get them to work together. Sure anyone can build with perfect parts but perfect from a production line is very rare no matter what your specifications are.
That's why truly custom built guns cost so much because the parts are made just for that gun, most of the time.
Some are just the production parts that everyone can buy but put together by a builder that can take it to another level & fit each part to work with the other parts to preform better. That's what your extra $$ in a gun buys, It's not so much the quality of the parts it's the attention to detail in the assembly that makes the gun better.
So if you are one of those builders that has the talent to assemble a gun paying attention to detail & getting the most quality out of the production parts, you can build a great gun out of cheap parts.
The name on the outside doesn't matter if the quality is not on the inside.

No matter how good someone is at "fitting" parts does not change the actual material composition of the parts, and the various mfg processes that have to be done correctly for the parts to perform as needed.

Buying a quality part, even if you have to fit it, is a better guarantee of performance/longevity than buying a budget (material quality, mfg expertise, etc) part and fitting it just as well.

Ask any of the 1911 guys, if they can hear you (hahahaha), they will tell you that forged 1911 guts are better than the MIM parts.

Material quality is the #1 reason that stuff fails. 2nd would be the mfg process, whether it is heat treat, stress relieving or etc. actual component fit is usually not an issue, due to the fact that stuff has to fit together to work, so the truly out of spec parts never make it out the door. I have seen some tight tolerances cause issues, but it is often poor surface finish that requires break in procedures to be done by the end user.

As always, buying expensive stuff does not equal quality, but once you decide to start building/assembling you really need to have a good back ground in QC. By that i mean you need to know what you are looking at. THis is part of the skill of making things work, and not many possess that skill.

kcinnick · Jan 29, 2020

jdindadell said:
Ask any of the 1911 guys, if they can hear you (hahahaha), they will tell you that forged 1911 guts are better than the MIM parts.

Lots of gun makers use MIM parts in very reliable guns. Not all MIM parts are equal in quality.

twinin · Jan 29, 2020

MIM parts like a Glock? Compared to the PSA Dagger parts?

kcinnick · Jan 29, 2020

twinin said:
MIM parts like a Glock? Compared to the PSA Dagger parts?

Glock does use MIM parts, not sure about PSA in the Dagger. Glock, Colt, Smith, Sig etc. all use MIM parts. Most guns have MIM parts, cheap to Gucci in price.

DAVE_M · Jan 29, 2020

jdindadell said:
so the truly out of spec parts never make it out the door.

DAVE_M · Jan 29, 2020

kcinnick said:
Lots of gun makers use MIM parts in very reliable guns. Not all MIM parts are equal in quality.

People think MIM means junk.

Metal Injection Molding is just one more manufacturing process.

DAVE_M · Jan 29, 2020

jdindadell said:
Do you?

I will not argue that buying a factory build "quality" gun and shooting it enough to feel comfortable with it is likely the best bet for the vast majority of people, myself included.

Yes. I think the majority of knowledgeable AR-15 owners will agree with that.

Price isn't everything. There are rifles being built by small shops where the rifle passes hands twice. Once from the builder and again from the QC inspector. I also have photos of higher end rifles being thrown together like it's a lego set, skipping steps and doing things that I would not expect for a rifle that costs in excess of $1000.

DAVE_M · Jan 29, 2020

New upper receiver with an improperly timer barrel extension causing failures to feed.

Bolt improperly machined, causing the bolt lugs to hit the barrel extension.

DAVE_M · Feb 12, 2020

kcinnick · Feb 12, 2020

Gator 45/70 said:
So, On a scale of 1-10 whats your take on one of these?

I kill animals btw,Not much on killing paper.I like the camo model

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

Gator 45/70 said:
About that M&P®15 Sport™ II ???

If you have not picked up a sport II yet and are looking for a S&W rifle get this one.

https://lockedloaded.com/product/sm...e-sl-black-stk-black-armornite#product_detail

chrisdcd · Feb 12, 2020

No

5.45 Shooter said:
Parts are parts!
An AR is just a tool to preform a job. That job is to deliver a projectile on target without fail.
And as long as the parts preform as intended the AR will do what it supposed to do, no matter what name is on the part or what price is paid for that part.
The tolerance on parts is variable, if you don't believe that ask anyone that has worked in a QC department.
What is needed for these variable sized parts is a builder that can assemble the parts & get them to work together. Sure anyone can build with perfect parts but perfect from a production line is very rare no matter what your specifications are.
That's why truly custom built guns cost so much because the parts are made just for that gun, most of the time.
Some are just the production parts that everyone can buy but put together by a builder that can take it to another level & fit each part to work with the other parts to preform better. That's what your extra $$ in a gun buys, It's not so much the quality of the parts it's the attention to detail in the assembly that makes the gun better.
So if you are one of those builders that has the talent to assemble a gun paying attention to detail & getting the most quality out of the production parts, you can build a great gun out of cheap parts.
The name on the outside doesn't matter if the quality is not on the inside.

I couldn’t disagree with this statement more. Assembling an AR is a pretty simple process, and it does not take a Gunsmithing to do it. I build roughly 100 AR platform firearms a year, and I’ve used a shot load of junk along the way. And with that junk I’ve seen everything from relaibility issues, Accuracy issues, and the. Comes safety issues. I have seen catastrophic failures. Catastrophic failures that were caused by out of spec parts that no one could have prevented prior to Assembly, even if every step was meticulously followed with proper gauging and torque spec. QC is everything, along with types of alloys used for production and finish. You can put these parts in your hand and feel the difference between quality and junk. If you think you can get a palmetto to shoot like a Noveske, then you don’t have a clue.

DAVE_M · Feb 12, 2020

chrisdcd said:
I couldn’t disagree with this statement more. Assembling an AR is a pretty simple process, and it does not take a Gunsmithing to do it. I build roughly 100 AR platform firearms a year, and I’ve used a shot load of junk along the way. And with that junk I’ve seen everything from relaibility issues, Accuracy issues, and the. Comes safety issues. I have seen catastrophic failures. Catastrophic failures that were caused by out of spec parts that no one could have prevented prior to Assembly, even if every step was meticulously followed with proper gauging and torque spec. QC is everything, along with types of alloys used for production and finish. You can put these parts in your hand and feel the difference between quality and junk. If you think you can get a palmetto to shoot like a Noveske, then you don’t have a clue.

Better prepare for the angry mob :rofl:

chrisdcd · Feb 12, 2020

I’m guess I’m gonna get kicked off of here huh? I didn’t realize that there that many sensitive people in the firearms world. I just speak the truth as I see it man. And it’s not from listening to other people, it’s from my experience of what I’ve seen and done. If anyone thinks that you can take parts from something like say a palmetto or, god forbid, bear creek arsenal, and make it shoot like a Noveske or V7, then the reality is that you just don’t know what your talking about. Even Aero Precision stuff is pretty high quality in my opinion, but their barrels are not comparable to the top tier stuff. Whet the blanks come from matter. Who machines it matters. Whether or not it’s chrome lined matters. All of these things play a part in the consistency and accuracy of the firearm. Some of my favorite barrels to use are Faxon. I think they make some of the better barrels out there for the money and for the accuracy you get. But even their match grade barrels are not as consistent as the top tier stuff. There is most def a reason pets cost more. And some say that just Bc it costs more doesn’t make it better. To be completely honest, I can’t think of one example of that in the AR market. Each manufacturer that I’ve used I can tell the difference in the quality, and the price is reflected accordingly. You buy a $50 barrel, and your gonna get $50 accuracy. And some people are ok with that, and that’s perfectly fine. I, personally, want a little better than that. You spend $600 on a barrel, and I can pretty much guarantee you what your going to get.

kcinnick · Feb 12, 2020

I wouldn't hang your hat on Noveske. They take other peoples products, put their logo on it and sell it for 150% of what it cost elsewhere. They do use some good parts, but I am not buying them over KAC, LMT or even Larue for rifles in that price bracket. I have seen some things from Noveske over the years that I wouldn't buy one sight unseen at any price to own and use.

bigtattoo79 · Feb 13, 2020

DAVE_M said:

How many BS members just realized thy are lacking in the AR tool category?

Gator 45/70 · Feb 13, 2020

kcinnick said:
If you have not picked up a sport II yet and are looking for a S&W rifle get this one.

https://lockedloaded.com/product/sm...e-sl-black-stk-black-armornite#product_detail

Yeah,Okay ,Okay, I like that,Good looking machine,Thanks

chrisdcd · Feb 13, 2020

kcinnick said:
I wouldn't hang your hat on Noveske. They take other peoples products, put their logo on it and sell it for 150% of what it cost elsewhere. They do use some good parts, but I am not buying them over KAC, LMT or even Larue for rifles in that price bracket. I have seen some things from Noveske over the years that I wouldn't buy one sight unseen at any price to own and use.

Their barrels. Their barrels are superior to most on the market. As far as their receivers and such, maybe a little on the high end, but the barrels are what make the AR IMO. If your going to do a build, and your on a budget, spend as much as you can on the barrel and budget out the rest. And if you can swing any drop in trigger, get it. One of the drop in triggers that I've used the most is one of the least expensive, and I've never had an issue with it. Rise Armament RA-140 with a 3.5# break. Some of the triggers I do believe are considerably overpriced considering the quality. That's probably one of the few pieces. You can get a CMC drop in for $150 or so, or a Geissle SSA for $220. I take the CMC all day.

kcinnick · Feb 13, 2020

chrisdcd said:
Their barrels. Their barrels are superior to most on the market. As far as their receivers and such, maybe a little on the high end, but the barrels are what make the AR IMO. If your going to do a build, and your on a budget, spend as much as you can on the barrel and budget out the rest. And if you can swing any drop in trigger, get it. One of the drop in triggers that I've used the most is one of the least expensive, and I've never had an issue with it. Rise Armament RA-140 with a 3.5# break. Some of the triggers I do believe are considerably overpriced considering the quality. That's probably one of the few pieces. You can get a CMC drop in for $150 or so, or a Geissle SSA for $220. I take the CMC all day.

You can get a high quality, name brand, chrome lined, hand lapped barrel guaranteed to shoot sub MOA for $250. The Larue MBT trigger is a great trigger, and down to $80.

Your budget AR is not "just as good"

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