Your budget AR is not "just as good"

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    DAVE_M

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    Keeping with the general theme of the original post, for those who actually pay attention, things can go sideways even with boutique brands. The feed ramps of the upper receiver on this Q Honey Badger were not cut properly, causing rounds to snag on the upper rather than hitting the feed ramps.

    4F2B860D-943D-473C-916E-D86829A94CD8.jpeg03583A7A-F83A-423E-8861-97D27F83904F.jpegBA352BDC-9D70-48C5-98B8-D44E0AE40EFE.jpeg
     

    DAVE_M

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    Here is a good one.

    This is what happens when you use the wrong tools to install a barrel nut and shear the index pin on the barrel extension.

    49737194091_21839f55ef_b.jpg
     

    DAVE_M

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    Bumping this thread back up with a good one.

    Bear Creek Arsenal. Do not fret, the no longer apply loctite to their barrel nuts. However, they do use a rigged up wrench with a cheater bar to tighten the barrel nut after the gas block is installed for some reason. That vise block is also being misused, but I digress.

    49827301401_bd73090513_o.jpg
     

    jdindadell

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    I wonder how many times that "vice block" slipped out of the vise... Beefcake with the cheater bar is quite slick, but his form is all wrong. He needs to twist that arm a bit so his sweet tat can be more easily seen, and thus, appreciated.

    No more loctite on anything from BCA... I guess it will be easier to tell what is loose.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I wonder how many times that "vice block" slipped out of the vise... Beefcake with the cheater bar is quite slick, but his form is all wrong. He needs to twist that arm a bit so his sweet tat can be more easily seen, and thus, appreciated.

    No more loctite on anything from BCA... I guess it will be easier to tell what is loose.

    Although that photo is old, they haven't changed their ways.

    Nothing is torqued to any spec. T-handle driver for the handguard and the open end / cheater bar wrench abomination for the barrel nut. No headspace checks, no torque specs, slap it together and call it good.

    49827767586_fa3cdbadb4_h.jpg

    49827767591_902f009992_h.jpg
     

    kcinnick

    Training Ferrous Metal
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    When I saw this thread bumped I was hoping the BCA video was posted, I guess screen shots are good enough. I have seen more expensive brands assembled in a similar manner, so it is not just BCA that is guilty of this.
     

    DAVE_M

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    When I saw this thread bumped I was hoping the BCA video was posted, I guess screen shots are good enough. I have seen more expensive brands assembled in a similar manner, so it is not just BCA that is guilty of this.

    If I could share the video without having to re-host it, I would.

    I can think of a few "better" companies that do the same thing. Considering how many AR companies exist, there are only a handful I trust.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I broke down the video frame by frame to really see what was going on here.

    First, we have an assembled upper receiver (forward assist and ejection port door pre-installed) attached to a vise block that holds the upper by the pivot and takedown pin lugs. This is not a bad vise block when installing accessories or optics, but should not be used for barrel installations. When applying torque to the barrel nut with this vise block, the barrel and upper are unsupported and will transfer unnecessary force to the lugs. This can lead to damaging the lugs.

    49830669177_787a991e08_k.jpg


    Next we see the barrel being installed dry. This barrel fits loosely into the receiver.

    49830353436_b3a98842b5_k.jpg


    We can see here that a shim is being added to the barrel extension. I am unsure why, because at this point the barrel was just installed and the barrel nut has not been test fit or timed to know what shims are necessary to time the nut.

    49830352716_f714c2fa3c_k.jpg


    Now we see the barrel nut being installed onto the dry threads of the receiver and an open end wrench slipped into a cheater bar being used to tighten the barrel nut. Proper tension will not be achieved due to the threads being dry, but it wouldn't be properly achieved anyway, because the nut isn't being torqued to any specific value.

    49830669337_b2426b3dae_k.jpg


    He slides the gas block onto the barrel with the gas tube pre-installed. Since the barrel is not dimpled for the gas block, he is eye-balling the alignment. This is guaranteed to cause issues.

    49829818793_f67fc07000_k.jpg


    After visually inspecting that the gas block appears to be misaligned, he taps it a few times with the t-handle hex key to attempt to realign the block. Satisfied with the alignment, he tightens the set screw to the barrel. There are three problems here. If he cannot verify that the gas block is aligned, there is a possibility that the gas port and block are not actually aligned and will cause the rifle to act undergassed. Companies often oversize the gas ports to ensure that the rifle will function with all ammunition types, but that results in excess wear and is yet another corner cut to save money. Another issue is that due to the barrel not being dimpled, the only thing holding the gas block in place is friction between the tiny set screws and barrel. Not only should the barrel be dimpled, but they should be using knurled cup point set screws.

    49830353481_e5558671a7_k.jpg


    At this point, he feels the need to apply a little more force to the barrel nut. Most likely because he feels it is misaligned. The barrel nut BCA is using does not have to be timed for the gas tube to pass through, but it does need to be timed for the handguard to attach properly.

    49830661407_e21dedaf53_k.jpg


    The muzzle device is then installed without the barrel being properly seated in barrel vise jaws. This is not only inducing unnecessary stress on the index pin, but also on the upper receiver lugs due to it still being attached to the vise block.

    49830659802_c4cc5a7e53_k.jpg


    He now attaches the handguard and visually aligns it to the receiver. The handguard has oversized holes to allow for some play when the barrel nut is not timed properly. In this instance, you want to use a spare charging handle, picatinny mount, or a jig to ensure the handguard and receiver are aligned properly.

    49830669332_8d84ed4529_k.jpg


    He visually inspects the upper for straightness. Apparently jigs and gauges are too expensive for BCA to use. Ironically, jigs and gauges speed up production AND ensure higher QC.

    49829818893_bad461c22f_k.jpg


    To install the bottom handguard screws, he does not remove the upper from the vise block. Instead he rests all of the weight on the takedown pin. This is a terrible idea. This is pure laziness and the upper should be sitting on the bench.

    49829818503_a94b43054f_k.jpg


    He now picks a random dry bolt carrier group and charging handle from the pile and slides them into the upper. He slides them in and out, DRY, to ensure they move freely. I can only imagine how gritty that feels.

    49830361306_523fc723db_k.jpg


    At no point during any of this was the barrel and bolt combination headspace gauged, the gas block alignment was only visually inspected from the exterior, and the entirety of the upper was assembled dry without a single torque wrench in sight. Spend your money how you want, but this is a prime example of why you budget AR is not "just as good."
     

    drenfro78

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    The Smith M&P’s are extremely popular. And they are decent firearms. I don’t know what type of accuracy you will get with those. When I build a hunting rifle, I generally try to use either a match barrel or something that guarantees sub moa at 100 yards. There are some affordable barrels out there do that. I think for roughly a hundred or so dollars more I can build you an AR that will be probably a little more accurate than a smith and significantly better. And by better I mean an MLok free floating hand-guard( which Is a big upgrade), an oversized charging handle, and probably squeeze in a decent drop in trigger with a 3.5# break. And all of that can be done for about $900.

    I can ring steel plates at 100yds open sights all day long with my M&P sport. That’s all I really ask of it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    drenfro78

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    If that's all you expect of it, rock on.

    From that rifle yes. It’s reliable, put together well, and is accurate enough to drop a man at 100 yards. It stays in my grab and go safe. I built another rifle with a Colt match grade barrel and better parts for more precise shooting.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    kcinnick

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    A few more gems for everyone to enjoy:

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    Dafuq am I looking at!!! Name and shame!

    Oh, and I do have an M&P, not a sport, but I keep it to have a loaner AR. The parts are good, the assembly was mostly OK. I fixed everything but the castle nut staking, my vise is still sitting in a box, I need to mount it to my new work bench and do it right, and find all my tools. AK building has taken over, much more satisfying than an AR build.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Dafuq am I looking at!!! Name and shame!

    Oh, and I do have an M&P, not a sport, but I keep it to have a loaner AR. The parts are good, the assembly was mostly OK. I fixed everything but the castle nut staking, my vise is still sitting in a box, I need to mount it to my new work bench and do it right, and find all my tools. AK building has taken over, much more satisfying than an AR build.

    Aero Precision and Anderson lowers with defects. The Aero lowers had the buffer retainer hole drilled in the wrong location, which cut through to the trigger pocket. The Anderson lower has an out of spec magwell, which is on par for Anderson.
     

    kcinnick

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    Aero Precision and Anderson lowers with defects. The Aero lowers had the buffer retainer hole drilled in the wrong location, which cut through to the trigger pocket. The Anderson lower has an out of spec magwell, which is on par for Anderson.

    I saw the defects, I just wanted names. When Aero first started selling to the public under their own brand name they were pretty good. The longer they have been on the market the crappier their products have gotten. You can still get good Aero stuff, but you have a chance of getting out of spec crap too. They will fix it.... IF they have the parts to swap out. I won't touch an Anderson. I gave away the freebies I got from them, well not directly from them, they were from a distributor, but still, crap tier is still crap tier when it is free.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I saw the defects, I just wanted names. When Aero first started selling to the public under their own brand name they were pretty good. The longer they have been on the market the crappier their products have gotten. You can still get good Aero stuff, but you have a chance of getting out of spec crap too. They will fix it.... IF they have the parts to swap out. I won't touch an Anderson. I gave away the freebies I got from them, well not directly from them, they were from a distributor, but still, crap tier is still crap tier when it is free.

    Aero currently kicked customers to the curb due to COVID-19. You will have to wait a while before any warranty work can be done.

    Really, how on earth did that lower with messed up mag well make it out of ANY plant.

    I have a folder full of photos of rifles from low end to high end with tons of defects. QC slips happen. More often with the cheap stuff.

    An AK guy would fix that with a dremel!!!:rofl:

    That's why AK guys are AK guys, because you can't fix that with a dremel...
     

    DAVE_M

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    You are right. PSA, as I understood along time ago, is made to Mil Specs. Am I wrong?

    Yes.

    Milspec has become a misunderstood fallacy. The majority of companies out there claiming to be made to military specifications are loosely following the TDP and most often failing to adhere to those tolerances, because they have a lack of quality control. Furthermore, the TDP spec tolerances are a rather wide range and it is up to the manufacturer to ensure their products work well together. Tolerance stacking is a common issue with manufacturers like PSA. They sell high volume low quality components while batch testing for quality.
     
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