Your budget AR is not "just as good"

DAVE_M · Jan 8, 2020

chrisdcd said:
I'm not real sure what you consider a "boutique" rifle. You can get an Adams Arms piston driven AR for about $700 brand new. The piston driven AR's served a purpose based on a false premise of better reliability over gas. That is pretty well known, at this point, to not be true. They have more moving parts, so that would drive the price up.

See Cobalt Kinetics.

Cheesy Lasagna · Jan 8, 2020

Okay, saw Cobalt Kinetics’ site and it is truly a joke.
Lots of hype and babble.

Reminded me of Dynamic Pie Concepts.

Gator 45/70 · Jan 8, 2020

chrisdcd said:
So, I like the general premise of how the thread starts, but I personally do not agree with some of the feedback. I'm an FFL and NFA manufacturer. I specialize in custom AR platform builds. To dumb it down for most guys, I explain like this. Cheap AR's are fine if your going to the range 3 times a year and don't give a **** about accuracy. And there is a market for that. When you start paying up for nice firearms, your paying for quality.

I would personally never purchase any firearm part from anyone but a reputable manufacturer. The reason is because it's flat out dangerous. I have been there and done it. I've catastrophic malfunctions, and it only takes one to understand. And anyone standing around you that sees it, understands as well. Now, there are several AR manufacturers that produce this stuff that is safe and fairly reliable with little use. Palmetto and Anderson being two of the most prominent. Their barrels are junk though. Someone stated that you don't buy AR's that have been assembled, only SCAR's and Sig's or whatever. Where is the logic in that? Everything is assembled by someone somewhere either in a shop, or facility, or in your home.

Why do guys have these high end custom bolt guns built? If your competent, that's what matters. And the parts you use of course. I can build a significantly better firearm, at a much better price than you can purchase out of a box. For the most part anyway. There is high end stuff out there that is bad ass for sure. But for the average, middle of the road shooter, I can save you money. Reliability and functionality are paramount, with accuracy being second. If the gun doesn't shoot, doesn't matter how accurate it is. I also saw someone saying that you get what you pay for, but that a higher priced rifle is not always better. That's an oxymoron, it's contradicting itself, and it's really not true.

These prices are not pulled out of thin air, they are based on the cost of manufacturing of the item. It's all percentages. The reason why one firearm cost more than another is because it cost more to build, and the reason it cost more to build is because the parts and the process cost more, etc. Maybe it's a different type of metal used, maybe the finish is higher end, maybe the QC process is more stringent. There are so many factors that drive the prices, and the reason why is all bc of the quality of the firearm. You grab a Palmetto, and you grab a middle of the road firearm like an Aero, shake em both and listen to the rattle. You tell me. Then put up a target at 100 yards, and shoot some groups. You find out real quick exactly why you don't really want a Palmetto. The reality is that there actually are a lot of people that buy these things and never shoot em, so it doesn't matter. So they will never know, and that's fine.

I encourage anyone that can legally own a firearm to exercise their second amendment right and arm themselves, but if you ask me questions about why one is better than the other, I'm gonna tell you the truth. A lot of people listen, and a lot don't. A lot come back and upgrade. The bottom line is this....if your a shooter, you don't even have to ask these questions.

So, On a scale of 1-10 whats your take on one of these?

I kill animals btw,Not much on killing paper.I like the camo model

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

DAVE_M · Jan 8, 2020

Gator 45/70 said:
So, On a scale of 1-10 whats your take on one of these?

I kill animals btw,Not much on killing paper.I like the camo model

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

For what your intended purpose is, it would be fine.

Core · Jan 8, 2020

I could not have said it much better.. But honestly some manufacturers are just better at building ARs than others, and much of this is proprietary technology. And price does not always dictate superiority. It’s hard to beat miltech parts that have been tested and fielded for years in some cases, so yes there are in some cases better parts but it’s very risky to fall into the “better than milspec” trap. The only things I believe need improvement are the springs used in a military Stoner M4/M16. I might argue the BCG could benefit from a full chroming like originally fielded. The FCGs should also be full mass as most ARs do not have full mass hammers. There’s other issues like gas port size and buffer weight but ultimately if the components are actually miltech and they were QCd you can build your own budget AR that’s just as good as xXx manufacture. And as a caveat yes assembly and fitting is critical and just as critical as QC the parts themselves. I’ve seen builds with high end parts fail to function due to a number of fitment issues. Good post, I’ll watch the video post comment and see what they have to say.

chrisdcd · Jan 8, 2020

I don't think that was really the point of the original post man. It was more just making a point, not telling anyone they need to purchase a $3000 AR to be happy. His point was correct. I said this in an earlier post, if you shoot a lot, you already understand what he's talking about. There is nothing wrong with your firearms, but a lot guys ask themselves this questioin....."Can I put my life on it?" Would you bet your life on that Palmetto? That's what matters. And I understand your not going into a firefight, but if by some happenstance you do have to defend your home from an intruder, you want something that your 100% confident with. Paying a little more may or may not make you feel any better, but it usually gives you a more rugged and reliable firearm. No one is shaming a Palmetto...My first AR was a Bushmaster. I shot the hell out of that 308. I still love it, but I have some better stuff. I shot it so much that is has broken twice actually, and now it doesn't cycle very well a lot of the time. The point is that I agree with you, but your point wasn't really directed at the point he was trying to make. If you shoot a lot, it matters.

DAVE_M · Jan 8, 2020

chrisdcd said:
I don't think that was really the point of the original post man. It was more just making a point, not telling anyone they need to purchase a $3000 AR to be happy. His point was correct. I said this in an earlier post, if you shoot a lot, you already understand what he's talking about. There is nothing wrong with your firearms, but a lot guys ask themselves this questioin....."Can I put my life on it?" Would you bet your life on that Palmetto? That's what matters. And I understand your not going into a firefight, but if by some happenstance you do have to defend your home from an intruder, you want something that your 100% confident with. Paying a little more may or may not make you feel any better, but it usually gives you a more rugged and reliable firearm. No one is shaming a Palmetto...My first AR was a Bushmaster. I shot the hell out of that 308. I still love it, but I have some better stuff. I shot it so much that is has broken twice actually, and now it doesn't cycle very well a lot of the time. The point is that I agree with you, but your point wasn't really directed at the point he was trying to make. If you shoot a lot, it matters.

I’ve owned enough rifles and put together enough to know that there is good and there is bad. A name does not make something good or bad, but it will give you an idea of what you’re dealing with. Knowing the why, how, and what, is more important than the who.

The point of this thread was to open the eyes of people willing to learn. Those who dismiss facts are often set in their ways and can’t be swayed.

MOTOR51 · Jan 8, 2020

Markmmg said:
I have a DPMS Oracle AR15 and a PSA AR10. Are they as good as some $3000 rifle? Probably not. But who cares. We all buy these as range toys, we are not going to war with them. Sure some will say, Mine is not a range toy, it is for home defense. How many people here will be defending their home in a hours long firefight? Nobody. My DPMS fires much better than the piece of crap Colt M-16 I used in the Army so who cares if my DPMS is not the Ferrari of AR15's. When I get deployed with the special forces (which will be never) I will upgrade to some super expensive AR.

Exactly. Have you seen what some of these training classes look like? Some participants have more gear than a spec-ops team. My department issues bushmaster rifles, which is a brand that is looked down on by a lot of people. I’ve shot thousands of rounds through it with no problems and it’s plenty accurate enough. Guess I got lucky.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Gator 45/70 · Jan 8, 2020

chrisdcd said:
I don't think that was really the point of the original post man. It was more just making a point, not telling anyone they need to purchase a $3000 AR to be happy. His point was correct. I said this in an earlier post, if you shoot a lot, you already understand what he's talking about. There is nothing wrong with your firearms, but a lot guys ask themselves this questioin....."Can I put my life on it?" Would you bet your life on that Palmetto? That's what matters. And I understand your not going into a firefight, but if by some happenstance you do have to defend your home from an intruder, you want something that your 100% confident with. Paying a little more may or may not make you feel any better, but it usually gives you a more rugged and reliable firearm. No one is shaming a Palmetto...My first AR was a Bushmaster. I shot the hell out of that 308. I still love it, but I have some better stuff. I shot it so much that is has broken twice actually, and now it doesn't cycle very well a lot of the time. The point is that I agree with you, but your point wasn't really directed at the point he was trying to make. If you shoot a lot, it matters.

About that M&P®15 Sport™ II ???

chrisdcd · Jan 8, 2020

The Smith M&P’s are extremely popular. And they are decent firearms. I don’t know what type of accuracy you will get with those. When I build a hunting rifle, I generally try to use either a match barrel or something that guarantees sub moa at 100 yards. There are some affordable barrels out there do that. I think for roughly a hundred or so dollars more I can build you an AR that will be probably a little more accurate than a smith and significantly better. And by better I mean an MLok free floating hand-guard( which Is a big upgrade), an oversized charging handle, and probably squeeze in a decent drop in trigger with a 3.5# break. And all of that can be done for about $900.

DAVE_M · Jan 9, 2020

chrisdcd said:
.

They are pretty strict about business related inquiries if you're not a sponsor.

chrisdcd · Jan 9, 2020

Yeh, and honsetly, I totally understand that. But if you got read my post, that was not what I was doing. I was just giving him so info to contact me if he wanted. In my mind, I was just trying to help him out. Maybe it was not perceived that way. Thanks for the heads up.

Gator 45/70 · Jan 9, 2020

chrisdcd said:
The Smith M&P’s are extremely popular. And they are decent firearms. I don’t know what type of accuracy you will get with those. When I build a hunting rifle, I generally try to use either a match barrel or something that guarantees sub moa at 100 yards. There are some affordable barrels out there do that. I think for roughly a hundred or so dollars more I can build you an AR that will be probably a little more accurate than a smith and significantly better. And by better I mean an MLok free floating hand-guard( which Is a big upgrade), an oversized charging handle, and probably squeeze in a decent drop in trigger with a 3.5# break. And all of that can be done for about $900.

Wow, Checked out a few of your videos,Where were you at,Fusilier Complex?

swampfoxx · Jan 9, 2020

I have followed all 14 pages of this thread with some interest. Prior to my boating accident, I had several AR rifles, SBRs and pistols, suppressed and non-suppressed. I have used CMMG, PSA and Anderson lowers, and mostly PSA uppers. I have used 5.56 and 223 Wylde barrels from various manufacturers, all CHF/chrome lined. I prefer CMMG LPKs and BMC charging handles, I prefer full auto BCGs with MPI/HPT, and have used nitride, black chrome and NiB coated carriers, and I only use Carpenter 158 bolts.

I have fired thousands of trouble-free rounds from all of these, and will trust my life to any of them. And, I would put them up against any factory rifle without hesitation.

Just my 0.02.

jdindadell · Jan 9, 2020

On a slightly related note, I would like to see the "top tier" mfgs offer a semi finished ar, minus stock, grip, muzzle device, and rail. Or maybe with rail options, so the generally proprietary barrel nut can be factory installed. I don't think I have ever seen a factory rifle that is setup the way i like... So even if I was to buy one of those "more expensive" guns, i would likely be taking it apart to some extent to swap parts . And I would have to buy the replacement parts, thus costing me even more money...

Maybe they could offer a "partial option" rifle that would allow the buyer to configure said items, and maybe a selection of charging handles and triggers, etc?

DAVE_M · Jan 9, 2020

jdindadell said:
On a slightly related note, I would like to see the "top tier" mfgs offer a semi finished ar, minus stock, grip, muzzle device, and rail. Or maybe with rail options, so the generally proprietary barrel nut can be factory installed. I don't think I have ever seen a factory rifle that is setup the way i like... So even if I was to buy one of those "more expensive" guns, i would likely be taking it apart to some extent to swap parts . And I would have to buy the replacement parts, thus costing me even more money...

Maybe they could offer a "partial option" rifle that would allow the buyer to configure said items, and maybe a selection of charging handles and triggers, etc?

First you would have to define what "top tier" is in your opinion.

BCM has just about every part of the rifle branded as their own, you won't find them offered with other brands furniture, but you can find them in configurations that allow you to swap parts easily. SOLGW will put together whatever you want with a phone call.

kz45 · Jan 9, 2020

jdindadell said:
On a slightly related note, I would like to see the "top tier" mfgs offer a semi finished ar, minus stock, grip, muzzle device, and rail. Or maybe with rail options, so the generally proprietary barrel nut can be factory installed. I don't think I have ever seen a factory rifle that is setup the way i like... So even if I was to buy one of those "more expensive" guns, i would likely be taking it apart to some extent to swap parts . And I would have to buy the replacement parts, thus costing me even more money...

Maybe they could offer a "partial option" rifle that would allow the buyer to configure said items, and maybe a selection of charging handles and triggers, etc?

Give JP a call they might do something like that.

DAVE_M · Jan 10, 2020

http://smallarmssolutions.com/home/...DVTUANyvFHP3YMAGw-Tym8jwXEZrYe-T1On3AladdqmPE

jdindadell · Jan 27, 2020

DAVE_M said:
First you would have to define what "top tier" is in your opinion.[/IMG]

Top Tier = not PSA

DAVE_M · Jan 27, 2020

jdindadell said:
Top Tier = not PSA

I think many will agree with that.

Your budget AR is not "just as good"

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