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  1. #11
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    My budget build is a blast and has never failed after a lot of shooting, but it is a range toy. My Colt is an investment in every way.
    “We Sackett boys never killed anything we didn't need to eat unless it was coming at us.”

  2. #12
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    The works for me mentality is why people believe the $350 AR-15 they bought is the equivalent to a reliable and quality carbine.
    Thats the thing I don’t care what you buy or if you think it’s the best or worst.

    If I recall you had a ‘quality’ gun come apart in your hands.

    What is the risk in letting someone who will likely never shoot out their poverty pony think it’s king ding-a-ling? This feels like the conversation about barrel burner cartridges. Those who will burn out a 300wm will also burn out 30-06 so shoot whatever cartridge you prefer. And those who won’t shoot enough to burn one out it won’t matter to them.

    Is there some epidemic of people tossing off poverty ponies and being disappointed that I’m in aware of?

    Keep in mind I don’t hardly shoot my blasters. Honestly I’m not gonna shoot a high end gun hot enough to ruin a cheap gun. For me it’s just no money or time well spent. If that’s your jam or you require that level of regular training then chances are you are provided a quality weapon or already own one. Am I wrong?

  3. #13
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    Thats the thing I don’t care what you buy or if you think it’s the best or worst.

    If I recall you had a ‘quality’ gun come apart in your hands.

    What is the risk in letting someone who will likely never shoot out their poverty pony think it’s king ding-a-ling? This feels like the conversation about barrel burner cartridges. Those who will burn out a 300wm will also burn out 30-06 so shoot whatever cartridge you prefer. And those who won’t shoot enough to burn one out it won’t matter to them.

    Is there some epidemic of people tossing off poverty ponies and being disappointed that I’m in aware of?

    Keep in mind I don’t hardly shoot my blasters. Honestly I’m not gonna shoot a high end gun hot enough to ruin a cheap gun. For me it’s just no money or time well spent. If that’s your jam or you require that level of regular training then chances are you are provided a quality weapon or already own one. Am I wrong?
    I don't recall stating that the Springfield Saint EDGE pistol I had fired was quality, although it did fall apart in my hands while shooting. It did further reinforce my opinion that the Springfield Armory SAINT line of rifles is overpriced for the poor level of QA/QC you receive.

    I have no issues with anyone spending their money as they choose, but don't call a Geo Metro a Ferrari. In a recent thread, someone proclaimed that their PSA rifle was just as good as a BCM carbine, although they stated they have no experience with an actual BCM complete rifle. That is the issue.

    The mass number of people buying budget rifles will most likely never shoot their rifle enough to know if there is an issue or not. This is a common theme among gun owners in general. It's not exclusive to AR-15 owners.

  4. #14
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magdump View Post
    Been building buying and shooting what I want for over 30 years. Owned plenty of each extreme. I’ve seen the top quality stuff fail and had plenty of lower cost stuff that has indeed stood the test of time. The best part of all that is judging for myself what is what and although I definitely take note of the manufacturer and as much factual info as I can remember about a firearm or part or accessory, I’ve never believed that I have to buy the most expensive thing or even close to it to have something dependable and of quality. I say this a lot, but every gun or gun related purchase on my part is not to add to my self defense plan. I own firearms for a variety of reasons.

    That being said, being a builder, I can and I have, on a budget, built AR 15 rifles that perform as well as high dollar AR 15 rifles. They have been as dependable, as accurate, as functional, and as durable as high dollar AR rifles and many I have built from PSA and other mixed manufacturers using discounted or lower cost premium barrels. At this point in my experience I know that all the basic and small milspec build parts I buy from PSA are of more than adequate quality for anything I’d want to build.
    I may or may not buy the top dollar optics, stocks, grips or hand guards for an AR but don’t consider any of that to be what makes a rifle.
    I started shooting AR’s when there were only a couple of manufacturers in the game. How glad are the majority of AR15 owners that there are so many other companies making and selling rifles and parts? If Colt and Armalite were the only 2 yesterday and Daniel Defense started up today, they’d be the underdog, likely for many years to come. They’d be priced accordingly or they’d likely go out of business.
    I believe they are on par with Colt and Armalite. Just because they aren’t asking a premium doesn’t mean they’re sub par. PSA sells directly to the consumer. That’s why their products are lower priced. Try to purchase a FN CHF barrel from another company like the ones PSA sells on some of their complete uppers and you’ll find they run a couple hundred bucks more than that upper.
    While it’s usually true, you get what you pay for, it’s not always true that the highest priced rifle is always better.
    I'm surprised you even responded to this thread, since you keep me on your ignore list, Magdump.
    Last edited by DAVE_M; January 4th, 2020 at 08:44 PM.

  5. #15
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    So my beater AR, with 5k+ rounds should not be counted as reliable, because it was a budget built AR? Isn't that by definition what reliability is? It just works when you pull the trigger? I mean as long as I do what I am supposed to do, and clean and inspect it for signs of excessive wear, cracks, or signs of failure after each heavy use. At what round count can it be considered reliable? As an instructor, retailer, and life long firearms enthusiast I can honestly say I have seen failures from every major, minor, and foreign manufacturer. From AR's to Handguns, to Shotguns. I will agree that the major brands fail less than the minor, or lesser known imports. However, to follow up the previous sentence, the numbers haven't been in sufficient quantity for me to not offer for sale those items. I have customers ask all the time what is a good gun, as I have no loyalty to one over another brand. I tell them one that has the features and ergonomics they are looking for, that shoots reliably well, at whatever price point is comfortable to them. When I purchase a new gun, before I put it into use, whether it be my daily CCW, for use in a class, etc. I bring it to the range and put no less than 300 rounds of whatever bulk ammo I have mixed in my bag at that given time. After the range trip it is cleaned and inspected for excessive wear and any damage. If it passes, I consider it a reliable firearm, safe for self defense use. I think that due diligence is key when going for budget products. There are some good bargains to be had, and some too good to be true. Some budget items work reasonably well, and some do not work at all. It really isn't that hard to tell the difference to someone who has at least done a bit of google homework.

    Eventually they will all break, but in all my years most of the stoppages I have seen were due to negligence, ignorance, or some combination of the two. I have personally never had a gun that just all of a sudden broke down. During my inspection process I repair any excessively worn parts, and try to address the root cause of the excessive wear. If I did have a gun that experienced a stoppage on a range trip, it is because I kind of expected it to go at some point, and just let it go for whatever research project I may have been working on that trip. I do occasionally break things in the name of my own science, if I think it is relatively safe. Disclaimer, I am not recommending it.

  6. #16
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I don't recall stating that the Springfield Saint EDGE pistol I had fired was quality, although it did fall apart in my hands while shooting. It did further reinforce my opinion that the Springfield Armory SAINT line of rifles is overpriced for the poor level of QA/QC you receive.

    I have no issues with anyone spending their money as they choose, but don't call a Geo Metro a Ferrari. In a recent thread, someone proclaimed that their PSA rifle was just as good as a BCM carbine, although they stated they have no experience with an actual BCM complete rifle. That is the issue.

    The mass number of people buying budget rifles will most likely never shoot their rifle enough to know if there is an issue or not. This is a common theme among gun owners in general. It's not exclusive to AR-15 owners.
    I understand you perceive they have delusions of grandeur. My question for you is how does it harm you or me? This seems like a lot of effort just to call someone out for delusions. As I said before if you buy or build what you want you don’t have to care what other people think of your pew. And if you are happy with your purchase it shouldn’t matter what other people think of theirs.

    Remember I popped in here because I struggle understanding the buying for the next buyer mindset, and wanted to throw my 2cents in on that, I really don’t get a hoot about the high zoot vs the bargain barrel debate. I’m not qualified base on my round count behind any of my guns to discuss what will hold up under the extreme abuse some might call it a day at the range. That said most deer hunters would consider what I do at the range with my rifles abusive.
    Last edited by Bangswitch; December 31st, 2019 at 03:15 PM.

  7. #17
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I'm surprised you even responded to this thread, since you keep me on your ignore list, James.
    I was thinking the same thing.


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  8. #18
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangswitch View Post
    I understand you perceive they have delusions of grandeur. My question for you is how does it harm you or me? This seems like a lot of effort just to call someone out for delusions. As I said before if you buy or build what you want you don’t have to care what other people think of your pew. And if you are happy with your purchase it shouldn’t matter what other people think of theirs.

    Remember I popped in here because I struggle understanding the buying the next buyer mindset, and wanted to throw my 2cents in on that, I really don’t get a hoot about the high zoot vs the bargain barrel debate. I’m not qualified base on my round count behind any of my guns to discuss what will hold up under the extreme abuse some might call it a day at the range. That said most deer hunters would consider what I do at the range with my rifles abusive.
    Directly or indirectly? Indirectly, I recently had to explain to a family member and friend why the S&W M&P Sport II wasn't the best AR-15 ever made. He came to that conclusion because the uneducated gun store employee was looking to make a sale. My family member also being uninformed took that as fact.

    Buy or build, understand what you're getting into. People never cease to amaze me by purchasing something, then asking for opinions on their purchase. They are really looking for someone to reassure them and agree that they made a good decision. The buy once cry once mentality is more akin to measure twice and cut once than it is to believing something is good because it's expensive. I've seen my fair share of $1000+ rifles fall apart. Price is not indicative of quality.

    If you had watched the video posted, you would understand that this thread is not about prices.

  9. #19
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troedoff View Post
    So my beater AR, with 5k+ rounds should not be counted as reliable, because it was a budget built AR? Isn't that by definition what reliability is? It just works when you pull the trigger?
    If that's what you choose to believe.

    Firing schedule is more telling than round count.

  10. #20
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    Directly or indirectly? Indirectly, I recently had to explain to a family member and friend why the S&W M&P Sport II wasn't the best AR-15 ever made. He came to that conclusion because the uneducated gun store employee was looking to make a sale. My family member also being uninformed took that as fact.

    Buy or build, understand what you're getting into. People never cease to amaze me by purchasing something, then asking for opinions on their purchase. They are really looking for someone to reassure them and agree that they made a good decision. The buy once cry once mentality is more akin to measure twice and cut once than it is to believing something is good because it's expensive. I've seen my fair share of $1000+ rifles fall apart. Price is not indicative of quality.

    If you had watched the video posted, you would understand that this thread is not about prices.
    I guess I’m still missing why this is such great concern you would oppose my statement of ‘buy/build what you want and don’t worry about the second owner’. The M&P sport II isn’t likely fooling anyone already on here. I personally like building stuff I’ll likely never buy another manufacturer assembled ar but it’s because I enjoy tinkering. I also enjoy using premium parts where it counts and using second hand or lower end parts where it’s less important. But those are my preferences, and as mentioned before the likelihood one of my blasters will fail from wear is pretty low. Would I trust them defensively? No more and no less than any other weapon I own with equal trigger time.

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