Proposed BATFE Form 4473 Change.

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  • Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Bull crap you and I have gone round and round about gender vs sex and your answer always is that I’m a bigot. That’s just not the case. I believe it’s a mental disorder and should be addressed correctly. You don’t give a meth-head meth. You don’t help people with eating disorders starve themselves, binge or purge, but for some reason you (among other mixed up souls) think helping a male mutilate himself is the answer to his identity issues. Its beyond moronic but I’m the bigot. Go figure.
    Hey man, I know, I know, but look at it this way, we put up with this gender bending denial thing for a while, they voluntarily give up their right to reproduce and bang! Gone from the gene pool. Darwin was right about a couple things I reckon...so I just look the other way, laugh when they demand I say yes ma’am and see it as a kind of purge.
     

    RaleighReloader

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    Bull crap you and I have gone round and round about gender vs sex and your answer always is that I’m a bigot. That’s just not the case. I believe it’s a mental disorder and should be addressed correctly.

    And I've told you before that the bulk of the mental health community (including the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM) disagrees with you. You're entitled to your own opinion, but contradicting science just makes you look like a fool.

    There was once a time when it was believed that homosexuality was a mental disorder, and for years various groups (including many churches) pushed "conversion therapy." We now understand that it's not a disorder, that it's not "therapeutic" to try to convert someone (in fact, it can be extremely harmful).

    So it goes with homosexuality, and so it goes with gender.

    Mike
     

    Bangswitch

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    And I've told you before that the bulk of the mental health community (including the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM) disagrees with you. You're entitled to your own opinion, but contradicting science just makes you look like a fool.

    There was once a time when it was believed that homosexuality was a mental disorder, and for years various groups (including many churches) pushed "conversion therapy." We now understand that it's not a disorder, that it's not "therapeutic" to try to convert someone (in fact, it can be extremely harmful).

    So it goes with homosexuality, and so it goes with gender.

    Mike

    Not so long ago electro shock therapy was approved treatment for mental illnesses. In 2020 the mental health community still believes it’s ok to make difficult patients vegetables. The mental health community is a flipping joke pardon me if I have no faith in it.

    Biology is science, physics, zoology, botany, anatomy, physiology. Those are sciences what the mental health community is doing doesn’t hold a candle to actual science.

    Edit:
    I would certainly agree homosexuality is not a mental illness although many homosexuals suffer from the same problems I believe cause the gender disorder but many are well adjusted members of society. And I would like to leave homosexuality right there no need to confuse the conversation any more.
     
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    Saintsfan6

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    And I've told you before that the bulk of the mental health community (including the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM) disagrees with you. You're entitled to your own opinion, but contradicting science just makes you look like a fool.

    There was once a time when it was believed that homosexuality was a mental disorder, and for years various groups (including many churches) pushed "conversion therapy." We now understand that it's not a disorder, that it's not "therapeutic" to try to convert someone (in fact, it can be extremely harmful).

    So it goes with homosexuality, and so it goes with gender.

    Mike

    Funny you bring up science. Science would indicate one is born male or female (with very rare genetic exceptions). This *gender theory* ideology that you and you social leftists types have bought into is new and a very non-scientific social construct. Whether the DSM, which i believe has bought into an agenda, believes it should be classified as a mental disorder does not change the FACT of one’s natural born sex remains unchanged regardless of sex change operations, feelings, or proper pronouns.

    I am not by any means saying one should not be allowed to ID as a female/male/cis/wtf ever else. This is America and you can call yourself God if you want, but our entire society should not make exceptions to scientific facts in order to avoid *offending* the very, very small minority that FEEL they are not included properly.

    ETA

    Please don’t make this a “you are a bigot and I am not” argument. It is not productive and defeats the purpose of discourse.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Hey man, I know, I know, but look at it this way, we put up with this gender bending denial thing for a while, they voluntarily give up their right to reproduce and bang! Gone from the gene pool. Darwin was right about a couple things I reckon...so I just look the other way, laugh when they demand I say yes ma’am and see it as a kind of purge.

    The problem is I have a heart, and people who suffer gender issues truly have a problem they need and deserve help. I’m not repulsed or offended by people with these issues I grieve for them. And Dick-ectomies and add-a-dick-to-mes aren’t the answer. The suicide rate of ‘transitioned persons’ proves it.

    Mental illness and addictions hold a place in my heart and it grieves my soul to watch people deal with these kinds of struggles and get Dr. Crackpot ‘helping’ them to a worse place.
     
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    Saintsfan6

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    So what? My weight has changed over time, and the 4473 asks me for that. Does the fact that my weight changes mean that it's a stupid question to ask?

    It collects data about a person at a point in time. And the only people that seems to bother are the ones that don't like it when things change.

    By the way, the majority of Americans support stricter gun control. If we're going to go by simple pluralities, should we just cave and hand over everything that isn't a single shot muzzle loader?

    Mike

    Difference is your weight is measurable and factually based measurement of an individual. The fact you are comparing how someone identifies as similar or interchangeable as a physical measurement of height/weight is silly and illogical. The problem is that “gender” was intended to be something measurable (or fixed from birth) but has devolved into how some identifies on that given day.

    And my point about the majority of American feeling that gender/sex is fixed just was to point out we are deciding to change something for no reason outside of a very small minority’s opinion or feelings. Obviously gun rights (ie constitutional rights) are a tad different arguing point than silly excessive gender check boxes on a ATF form.

    I hope you can see where your logic is flawed on both points.
     

    RaleighReloader

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    Funny you bring up science. Science would indicate one is born male or female (with very rare genetic exceptions).

    Gender is more than biology. The fields of psychology and sociology understand gender to be far more nuanced. And this is hardly new; history is full of examples of people that have expressed their genders in all sorts of different (non-traditional) ways.

    This *gender theory* ideology that you and you social leftists types have bought into is new and a very non-scientific social construct.

    Aah, the "leftist" accusation. I'll keep that in mind when I'm down at the legislature fighting for second amendment rights. (Speaking of which ... have you pounded any shoe leather at the legislature? Or are you too busy foaming at the lips about gender?)

    I don't subscribe to many of the traditional mores and social views that pre-war White Christians espoused. That said, some of my views *are* very conservative. Some (like gender expression) are very liberal. Some don't conform particularly well to either of those binary reductions. I think that's just evidence of being able to think for myself.

    Whether the DSM, which i believe has bought into an agenda, believes it should be classified as a mental disorder does not change the FACT of one’s natural born sex remains unchanged regardless of sex change operations, feelings, or proper pronouns.

    Oh goodie, let's talk about the DSM! Do share your views about the "agenda" that it brings.

    (I've got the DSM IV-TR and DSM 5 on my shelf, so feel free to quote examples.)

    I am not by any means saying one should not be allowed to ID as a female/male/cis/wtf ever else. This is America and you can call yourself God if you want, but our entire society should not make exceptions to scientific facts in order to avoid *offending* the very, very small minority that FEEL they are not included properly.

    Who is calling themselves God? Methinks you're setting up quite a scarecrow argument here.

    And you still haven't told us what "exceptions" are being made. Are transgender people given some sort of hall pass on having to follow the law or pay taxes? Actually, I'd argue that they want the *equal protections* of the law that the rest of us enjoy. That pesky Fourteenth Amendment thing ...

    Mike
     

    Bangswitch

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    Gender is more than biology. The fields of psychology and sociology understand gender to be far more nuanced. And this is hardly new; history is full of examples of people that have expressed their genders in all sorts of different (non-traditional) ways.



    Aah, the "leftist" accusation. I'll keep that in mind when I'm down at the legislature fighting for second amendment rights. (Speaking of which ... have you pounded any shoe leather at the legislature? Or are you too busy foaming at the lips about gender?)

    I don't subscribe to many of the traditional mores and social views that pre-war White Christians espoused. That said, some of my views *are* very conservative. Some (like gender expression) are very liberal. Some don't conform particularly well to either of those binary reductions. I think that's just evidence of being able to think for myself.



    Oh goodie, let's talk about the DSM! Do share your views about the "agenda" that it brings.

    (I've got the DSM IV-TR and DSM 5 on my shelf, so feel free to quote examples.)



    Who is calling themselves God? Methinks you're setting up quite a scarecrow argument here.

    And you still haven't told us what "exceptions" are being made. Are transgender people given some sort of hall pass on having to follow the law or pay taxes? Actually, I'd argue that they want the *equal protections* of the law that the rest of us enjoy. That pesky Fourteenth Amendment thing ...

    Mike

    Ok if gender is a social construct and you don’t buy into our social constructs then what benefit does preforming a hatchet job on a human being to make someone socially male or female?

    I have to agree with previous posters your logic is circular. I screw up and try that in excel from time to time and it’s frustrating.
     

    RaleighReloader

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    The problem is I have a heart, and people who suffer gender issues truly have a problem they need and deserve help.

    You think that the mental health community is a joke, but you're in a position to make a clinical diagnoses for a diverse group of people, and then dispense pity for them? And, you're going to make the leap from suicide to gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging the huge social stigma that this "pity" inflicts on people?

    Please.

    Many decades ago, the state of North Carolina engaged in an eugenics (forced sterilization) program for people that it determined were mentally ill. The legislation was titled "An Act to Benefit the Moral, Mental, or Physical Conditions of Inmates of Penal and Charitable Institutions," and it played the whole pity angle to inflict forced sterilization onto people that it didn't like. In the early 2000's the state was forced to make reparations to the survivors -- a small, but important step in righting this horrible wrong.

    Nobody in the transgender community wants pity or your faux diagnosis of "mental illness and addictions" any more than those 7,500 North Carolinians wanted to be sterilized.

    If you have the heart that you claim, then please stop judging these people.

    Ok if gender is a social construct and you don’t buy into our social constructs then what benefit does preforming a hatchet job on a human being to make someone socially male or female?

    Who cares what the benefit is? Are you being asked to pay for surgery?

    I have to agree with previous posters your logic is circular. I screw up and try that in excel from time to time and it’s frustrating.

    There's nothing circular about "live and let live," and accepting people for who they are. In fact, I think the Bible even says something about that.

    Mike
     
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    RaleighReloader

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    The problem is that “gender” was intended to be something measurable (or fixed from birth) but has devolved into how some identifies on that given day.

    Gender was "intended" to be something measurable? Says who? And why is it so important to measure gender? Is it that threatening to look at a person and not be able to immediately gauge their gender?

    And my point about the majority of American feeling that gender/sex is fixed just was to point out we are deciding to change something for no reason outside of a very small minority’s opinion or feelings. Obviously gun rights (ie constitutional rights) are a tad different arguing point than silly excessive gender check boxes on a ATF form.

    At least you acknowledged that a small minority also have opinions and feelings. That's a start.

    Mike
     

    Bangswitch

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    You think that the mental health community is a joke, but you're in a position to make a clinical diagnoses for a diverse group of people, and then dispense pity for them? And, you're going to make the leap from suicide to gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging the huge social stigma that this "pity" inflicts on people?

    Please.

    Many decades ago, the state of North Carolina engaged in an eugenics (forced sterilization) program for people that it determined were mentally ill. The legislation was titled "An Act to Benefit the Moral, Mental, or Physical Conditions of Inmates of Penal and Charitable Institutions," and it played the whole pity angle to inflict forced sterilization onto people that it didn't like. In the early 2000's the state was forced to make reparations to the survivors -- a small, but important step in righting this horrible wrong.

    Nobody in the transgender community wants pity or your faux diagnosis of "mental illness and addictions" any more than those 7,500 North Carolinians wanted to be sterilized.

    If you have the heart that you claim, then please stop judging these people.



    Who cares what the benefit is? Are you being asked to pay for surgery?



    There's nothing circular about "live and let live," and accepting people for who they are. In fact, I think the Bible even says something about that.

    Mike

    Have a good night sir. You’ve used so many key words a phrases of a typical leftist crackpot I’m gonna pull the ripcord.
     

    Saintsfan6

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    Gender is more than biology. The fields of psychology and sociology understand gender to be far more nuanced. And this is hardly new; history is full of examples of people that have expressed their genders in all sorts of different (non-traditional) ways.



    Aah, the "leftist" accusation. I'll keep that in mind when I'm down at the legislature fighting for second amendment rights. (Speaking of which ... have you pounded any shoe leather at the legislature? Or are you too busy foaming at the lips about gender?)

    I don't subscribe to many of the traditional mores and social views that pre-war White Christians espoused. That said, some of my views *are* very conservative. Some (like gender expression) are very liberal. Some don't conform particularly well to either of those binary reductions. I think that's just evidence of being able to think for myself.



    Oh goodie, let's talk about the DSM! Do share your views about the "agenda" that it brings.

    (I've got the DSM IV-TR and DSM 5 on my shelf, so feel free to quote examples.)



    Who is calling themselves God? Methinks you're setting up quite a scarecrow argument here.

    And you still haven't told us what "exceptions" are being made. Are transgender people given some sort of hall pass on having to follow the law or pay taxes? Actually, I'd argue that they want the *equal protections* of the law that the rest of us enjoy. That pesky Fourteenth Amendment thing ...

    Mike

    Wrong, gender is not more than biology. I know that is what the academics are pushing nowadays (hence the change in DSM categorization). Have their been trans individuals for a millennia? Sure. Has society completely rewritten what *male* and *female* mean based on the vast minorities identification as such? No, and it should not. These ideas are relatively new (mid-1900s) and IMO do not justify changing of official government documents or English language to accommodate.

    I sure am involved with local legislature, just not in Louisiana any longer.

    The *God* statement was making no argument at all, just stating the fact that people have the right to identify themselves as whatever they choose. Just because they choose to ID as one thing does not change the nature of said things.

    The transgender community/individual are offered all rights and protections under the constitution (including the 14th), as they should be. Exceptions would be creating completely new, unfounded identifications based solely on the development of academic gender theory classifications that are ever expanding. Then taking these new identifications and expecting new official government forms, pronouns and restrooms be created specifically for their particular identification.

    Let’s say I identify as an Hispanic, 300 pound, 5 foot tall, female on my FFL form. My claim is that falsifying my ethnicity, weight, height and gender would not be justified even if that how I really and truly identified. I find someone claiming on an official document that their sex/gender as anything other than what it is genetically is just as erroneous as someone claiming a different height or ethnicity. I cannot escape the genetic/biological fact that I am Caucasian and not Native American (see Elizabeth Warren ;-D).

    I think the ideological breakdown is of gender being a social construct (which I disagree) versus being a biological/genetic designation (which is what I argue). If gender is *fluid* or a *spectrum* which is immeasurable, then I argue why include it on the form at all? It can be ever changing for the individual and the classifications will never be *all encompassing*, so why even bother? In my opinion it provides little to no information if it cannot be a physically, scientifically measurable value/designation. Perhaps the solution would be to ask which sex chromosomes you were born with instead of *gender* to alleviate the social nonsense from it all.
     
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    DBMJR1

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    While all of y'all are bickering over who's got what in their trousers, . . .

    Y'all are completely missing the elephant in the room.


    With the new changes, you can put an appeal number in the box for UPIN.

    So if you are DENIED, you simply file an appeal, fill out a new 4473, enter your appeal number, and boom, you get a PROCEED ?????

    With no outcome on your appeal ?????




    I've already ordered 500 copies of the new form. Another 20 in Espanol.
     

    Bangswitch

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    While all of y'all are bickering over who's got what in their trousers, . . .

    Y'all are completely missing the elephant in the room.


    With the new changes, you can put an appeal number in the box for UPIN.

    So if you are DENIED, you simply file an appeal, fill out a new 4473, enter your appeal number, and boom, you get a PROCEED ?????

    With no outcome on your appeal ?????




    I've already ordered 500 copies of the new form. Another 20 in Espanol.

    Well that’s interesting. I’ve never had issues with waits or no gos, but it sounds like those who have had issues with getting the green light in the past should have a better experiences. Now that’s worthy of a form change.
     

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