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  • DAVE_M

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    Apr 17, 2009
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    Let me preface this by stating that I am not paid by or receiving incentives from USA Carry for posting this. I am posting this because I agree with the discussion in the video.

    There were a lot of guns drawn after shots were fired and even more confusion.

     

    AustinBR

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    Good video with a lot of great reminders. I also encourage everyone to watch it and try to write down a few takeaways and things that you can practice.
     

    AustinBR

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    If you watch the video, reply and let me know what your major takeaways are. I think this is a really good learning video and brings to light some topics that I think many do not consider.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Jan 10, 2019
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    Hesitation, post engagement discipline, accuracy/range/speed training.

    This and one that was not really discussed. The guy who was killed may have had a better chance of surviving the encounter by trusting his team, and allowing someone else to engage the threat. Even if he was the fastest and best shooter he already had a gun on him, and the threat had an additional advantage of being able to inflict significant damage without being accurate. I’m not saying his fault for attempting to defend himself, by any means.
     

    Tboy

    Moving forward
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    87   0   0
    Jul 14, 2008
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    I’ve read a few things that said the guy seemed to be in disguise or something was off about him...

    1. Someone that appears to be in any sort of disguise does not get to enter. We can ask Jesus and the pastor for forgiveness after church about that if we’ve made a mistake on it.

    2. There were people close enough to have rushed the guy if they had the mindset to do it. Not saying it would have changed the outcome of 2 dying but it was an option not discussed in the video

    3. As mentioned above and in the video the location of the holster/weapon seemed to slow the guy down while drawing. It also could be from lack of training with it. BG could tell he was making a move and it cost him his life.

    4. It seemed they had an idea the guy was off but were watching from across the way vs staging an armed guy behind him.

    Just my observations. I’m not trying to take away from what they did at all. Major kudos to the guy who took him out.
     

    MOTOR51

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    Dec 23, 2008
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    here
    a285cdc1bf8efb2f9eafe7828654403c.jpg


    It’s hard for me to critique people who are in the middle of fight or flight. I’m glad they all responded as some people critiquing them would have probably just took cover. Some trained people freeze when faced with a deadly force encounter, I have witnessed it with my own eyes. The only thing I would feel comfortable saying about the video is please watch your crossfire. The last thing I want is to take a round from a good guy trying to stop a bad guy. I think the squad I supervise thought I was a weirdo at first because I would be telling them to watch crossfire as we were pulling up to a situation. I wanted it to be in their heads before something went bad. Just my .02


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    Bangswitch

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    a285cdc1bf8efb2f9eafe7828654403c.jpg


    It’s hard for me to critique people who are in the middle of fight or flight. I’m glad they all responded as some people critiquing them would have probably just took cover. Some trained people freeze when faced with a deadly force encounter, I have witnessed it with my own eyes. The only thing I would feel comfortable saying about the video is please watch your crossfire. The last thing I want is to take a round from a good guy trying to stop a bad guy. I think the squad I supervise thought I was a weirdo at first because I would be telling them to watch crossfire as we were pulling up to a situation. I wanted it to be in their heads before something went bad. Just my .02


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    That’s one of my favorite modern quotes.
     

    Rocko68

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    13   0   0
    Jul 27, 2019
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    New Orleans, La
    I'm not sure how to start this off not being a LEO, or having a military background so my take are just things that stood out to me.
    Poor placement of a firearm being the first thing, including what may be lack of practice drawing.
    Freezing up was the second thing that stuck out as it appeared the second man shot just stood still during what seemed to be about a full 2 seconds + from the time the shooter stood and turned towards them.
    I do believe that there are some people that unavoidably freeze and some that can and will react in a split second.
    I commend those men who stood to take action by all means as well as the man who took the shooter down.
    Preparedness and the knowledge of what we, or I should say I am capable of is what I'll focus on.
    Practice shooting, practice drawing, and practice it again and again. Know your limits and capabilities.
     
    Last edited:

    El Pozzinator

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    Jul 29, 2012
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    Exactly. Crossfire, neutrals in line of fire, and backstop. Particularly in crowded places those must be PREconsidered. If you’re thinking during the situation, you’re already too late. Grossman points out in his book that the key to winning a survival gunfight is pre-determination. If A does B then C. Have the decision already made where you’ll go, what you’ll do, and to whom you’ll do it.

    And for the love of Pete, neutrals should NOT, under ANY circumstance, be breaking leather in the crowd. That’s how a congregant catches a bullet from a uniformed officer who didn’t know they were a neutral. Never mind the legal complications...

    There was a good vid on Wilson Combat’s YT channel with some other info gleaned from more recent studies suggesting most sheeple freeze for ~5 seconds after a bang while their brain decides between fight or flight, and that’s the security team’s window (uniformed or not) to adjudicate. After that it’s pandemonium and it’s gonna be like trying to bulldog thru a mosh pit...


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    El Pozzinator

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    Jul 29, 2012
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    Denham springs LA
    Practice shooting, practice drawing, and practice it again and again. Know your limits and capabilities.

    All well said, and this is the perfect summary. Seen plenty of well trained gunfighters turn into statues when it becomes a two way rifle range. Stood next to a SEAL in Afghanistan who ejected a full mag, reloaded, charged, and started pulling the trigger again - but never took the safety off.

    Before it happens is the time to have that “come to Jesus” talk with the person in the mirror and decide if you (not you specifically; “you” generally) are actually capable of AND willing to end another human being’s life. Some perfectly competent marksmen aren’t but they fail to have that very honest conversation with themselves until they realize they’re in a sheepdog or wolfhound role but they don’t have the teeth to back up the growl.

    I’ve known plenty of green-suit and blue-line folks who’ll throw down like nobody’s business and scrap like a junkyard dog but admit they’re not sure they’d be able to shoot someone. It ain’t a stain I’d wish on anyone’s soul...


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    thperez1972

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    10   0   0
    Dec 28, 2015
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    And for the love of Pete, neutrals should NOT, under ANY circumstance, be breaking leather in the crowd. That’s how a congregant catches a bullet from a uniformed officer who didn’t know they were a neutral. Never mind the legal complications...

    No. Just no. Unless there was an officer working a detail on site or just happened to be driving by, their response time would be minutes. And any uniformed officer who walked into that situation at any point past 20 seconds after the first shot was fired would not mistake a neutral for a perpetrator.
     

    Saw

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    18   0   0
    Oct 6, 2008
    388
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    New Orleans
    No. Just no. Unless there was an officer working a detail on site or just happened to be driving by, their response time would be minutes. And any uniformed officer who walked into that situation at any point past 20 seconds after the first shot was fired would not mistake a neutral for a perpetrator.

    Thumbs up Perez. You could argue there is no such thing as a *neutral*. There are only sides of the fight, and it is a fight for all the marbles. As most of us see it in this instance the parishioners, security detail, and law enforcement would all be on the same side. I know it may seem like an over-simplification but there are only good guys and bad guys in these scenarios. Threats to bodily harm...and everyone else. It obviously is sticky and imperfect, but I would argue it is your moral duty to slap leather in that church if you were carrying. I think we are just discussing how the best case scenario could have played out and techniques to get there.
     

    Troedoff

    *Banned*
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    0   0   0
    Oct 18, 2014
    136
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    Prairieville
    I take no issue with how the security team at the church responded at all after things started going bang. What I take issue with is the action that failed to take place before things started going bang, and the missed opportunities.
     
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