List of gun owners in the US?

Horrible · Aug 20, 2020

thperez1972 said:
So you think he's recalling the list of concealed permit holders and erroneously applying that memory to the ATF and Form 4473's?

So you disagree with Horrible and believe some lists are maintained at the state level? In states with a mandatory registration, a list of registered guns must be maintained. This holds true on the federal level for NFA items. I know some states perform the background check at the state level. If those states, if they are performed like the federal background check, the only possible list would be a list of people who requested a background check. A check does not equal a gun purchase. And a background check does not equal A gun purchase. If you buy two guns on one approval and the government does record there was an approval, they know only that there's a good chance you bought a gun. If they confiscate guns based on the list, they won't know how many guns to confiscate. I guess they might if they were to break into every gun shop to copy their records since the guns bought are recorded only on the form after the approval and stay with the business for up to 20 years as long as the store is in business. That's a lot of work that must be done to compile all the information needed for the super secret lists. And with all the manpower needed to accomplish this never ending mission, it's somewhat surprising that every single person tasked with assisting has been someone who is unwilling to spill the beans.

Excellent points regarding a background check vice a gun purchase. There could be check done for multiple purchases.

That said, There are states that absolutely have lists of all/most of the guns that their subjects own and confiscate using those lists. Are those lists complete? No. Do those lists contain firearms that you once owned but have sold? Yes. When all gun transfers are recorded online, it isn’t that hard to maintain a database that is mostly comprehensive, I would imagine.

oleheat · Aug 20, 2020

The fact that they're so hot to get 'ASSAULT WEAPONNNNNNS!!' registered suggests they currently don't have something they could use for cringe worthy purposes.

BTW- anyone else catch what Chris Wallace said last night on Fox News' coverage of the Dims' Convention?

‘Some fear Joe Biden will take away their second amendment rights.....Joe Biden has made it clear he is not interested in taking away your second amendment rights; he just a wants to take away weapons of mass destruction- assault weapons.’

Wallace is a liberal clown, at heart. Repeating garbage talking points on guns reaffirms he's not a friend of our Second Amendment.... :madfawk:

Horrible · Aug 20, 2020

oleheat said:
The fact that they're so hot to get 'ASSAULT WEAPONNNNNNS!!' registered suggests they currently don't have something they could use for cringe worthy purposes.

BTW- anyone else catch what Chris Wallace said last night on Fox News' coverage of the Dims' Convention?

Wallace is a liberal clown, at heart. Repeating garbage talking points on guns reaffirms he's not a friend of our Second Amendment....

The left are masters of incrementalism. AWB is a foot in the door to broader restrictions on firearms. They can simply remake the definition of what an evil *assault weapon* and in some cases do it by Exec Action by *re-interpreting* existing legislation. Before you know it all firearms other than single shot .22s are classified as such and made illegal. That is the strategy, which is why no compromise is the correct stance IMO

Fugum · Aug 20, 2020

When I turned in my FFL in the early 90s, two ATF agents showed up at my house to collect my records in person. No idea where they went from there though.

RaleighReloader · Aug 20, 2020

Horrible said:
The left are masters of incrementalism. AWB is a foot in the door to broader restrictions on firearms. They can simply remake the definition of what an evil *assault weapon* and in some cases do it by Exec Action by *re-interpreting* existing legislation. Before you know it all firearms other than single shot .22s are classified as such and made illegal. That is the strategy, which is why no compromise is the correct stance IMO

That's exactly correct.

The left wing's dream is to institute a ban on "Assault Weapons," with the definition of that being left as an administrative function. In other words, an "Assault Weapon" would be whatever BATF wants for it to be. That way, they can slowly outlaw guns of all sorts though simple administrative actions, instead of having to pass actual laws.

That's why it's so important to get "Assault Weapons" written into law. And for the definitions to be so nebulous.

Mike

Emperor · Aug 20, 2020

"You disbelievers (in government overreach), have learned nothing!"

Bangswitch · Aug 20, 2020

Emperor said:
"You disbelievers (in government overreach), have learned nothing!"

The thing is if the federal government is powerful enough to make a list and keep it quiet then they don’t need your NICS check to track you. They could simply track your credit card purchases, your cell phone locations, your browser history, what you like on Facebook, etc. so we are either thoroughly screwed anyways or they don’t store NICS data either way it really shouldn’t affect your gun purchasing habits, because if there’s a list everyone here is already on it.

Magdump · Aug 20, 2020

Bangswitch said:
The thing is if the federal government is powerful enough to make a list and keep it quiet then they don’t need your NICS check to track you. They could simply track your credit card purchases, your cell phone locations, your browser history, what you like on Facebook, etc. so we are either thoroughly screwed anyways or they don’t store NICS data either way it really shouldn’t affect your gun purchasing habits, because if there’s a list everyone here is already on it.

Jeezers, they do all that, but it’s a lot better for them if they keep up appearances, don’t you think? They know better than to openly disregard the laws and make every citizen aware of how things are being done. Maybe one day, but not right now. Can you imagine what might happen if the Feds just decided to go balls out and flaunt their over reach and rampant violation of our rights?

I still don’t know how anyone doubts the spy abilities of our government when it becomes known how much they can do when they’re doing them to hostile countries. Somehow people think the Fed wouldn’t dare use the technology on US citizens. It’s hilarious.
Who is it exactly that would stop them again?

thperez1972 · Aug 20, 2020

Emperor said:
"You disbelievers (in government overreach), have learned nothing!"

I believe in government overreach. And your picture is a good illustration of how difficult it is for the government overreach to be kept a secret. The information will, in all likelihood, eventually come out. And the more people who know about a secret, the greater the chance the secret will be revealed sooner rather than later.

Gator 45/70 · Aug 20, 2020

Magdump said:
Jeezers, they do all that, but it’s a lot better for them if they keep up appearances, don’t you think? They know better than to openly disregard the laws and make every citizen aware of how things are being done. Maybe one day, but not right now. Can you imagine what might happen if the Feds just decided to go balls out and flaunt their over reach and rampant violation of our rights?

I still don’t know how anyone doubts the spy abilities of our government when it becomes known how much they can do when they’re doing them to hostile countries. Somehow people think the Fed wouldn’t dare use the technology on US citizens. It’s hilarious.
Who is it exactly that would stop them again?

At least 2 dozen .Goobers on here taking notes.....

El Pozzinator · Aug 20, 2020

FFLs are supposed to destroy the transaction records after five years. ATF is supposed to be the custodian of records under that 5 year mark and they’re required to destroy them. Know who typically isn’t required to destroy them? State police or the FBI. Pennsylvania state police, as one example, has been sued multiple times for maintaining illegal inventories of citizens’ firearms that they admit when their admin is under oath in open court. I’m sure others likely do as well. AFAIK, Louisiana does not. Those actions can be taken because state laws specifically prohibit it. There’s nothing in CFR which stipulates other federal agencies (only the ATF is specified) cannot possess running inventories of firearm sales in perpetuity. And so the database exists. They can all query it, because it’s not their record so they’re not breaching the legal definition of “keeping” it. Kinda like health records- any doctor can request and look at them from anywhere else, but they can only keep records their organization (OLOL, Oschner, etc) generates.

Remember, it’s not fascism when WE do it...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bangswitch · Aug 20, 2020

Ok someone help me out. I don’t know where the disconnect is.

1. I go to Fred’s Firearm Emporium ask to see a gat and decide to buy it.
2. Fred says fill this form out (4473)
3. I fillout
4. Fred calls in the NICS
5. They give the ole Proceed
6. Fred files his form (digital or analog)
7. Fred collects the chedda and I leave.

This is where I’m getting lost

Does NICS keep note that I got a proceed?

Doe the ATF have someone sneak into Fred’s at night and copy all the new 4473’s?

Is Fred a government spy?

What am I missing?

The other side of the NICS call can’t be manned by very many people with a lot of horsepower. It sounds like a boring button pushing level job so you’re not getting true believers. I seriously doubt there’s a way NICS could keep records illegally and the world not already know. Besides if it was a covert inventory you only know they were approved to buy a firearm but not the specific firearm.

It would be really nice if someone would articulate where in the process my liberties are being violated. I’m nothing if not open minded.

thperez1972 · Aug 20, 2020

El Pozzinator said:
FFLs are supposed to destroy the transaction records after five years. ATF is supposed to be the custodian of records under that 5 year mark and they’re required to destroy them. Know who typically isn’t required to destroy them? State police or the FBI. Pennsylvania state police, as one example, has been sued multiple times for maintaining illegal inventories of citizens’ firearms that they admit when their admin is under oath in open court. I’m sure others likely do as well. AFAIK, Louisiana does not. Those actions can be taken because state laws specifically prohibit it. There’s nothing in CFR which stipulates other federal agencies (only the ATF is specified) cannot possess running inventories of firearm sales in perpetuity. And so the database exists. They can all query it, because it’s not their record so they’re not breaching the legal definition of *keeping* it. Kinda like health records- any doctor can request and look at them from anywhere else, but they can only keep records their organization (OLOL, Oschner, etc) generates.

Remember, it’s not fascism when WE do it...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I believe it's 5 years if the check does not result in a transfer and 20 years if the check results in a transfer.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-long-are-licensees-required-maintain-atf-forms-4473

thperez1972 · Aug 20, 2020

Bangswitch said:
Ok someone help me out. I don’t know where the disconnect is.

1. I go to Fred’s Firearm Emporium ask to see a gat and decide to buy it.
2. Fred says fill this form out (4473)
3. I fillout
4. Fred calls in the NICS
5. They give the ole Proceed
6. Fred files his form (digital or analog)
7. Fred collects the chedda and I leave.

This is where I’m getting lost

Does NICS keep note that I got a proceed?

Doe the ATF have someone sneak into Fred’s at night and copy all the new 4473’s?

Is Fred a government spy?

What am I missing?

The other side of the NICS call can’t be manned by very many people with a lot of horsepower. It sounds like a boring button pushing level job so you’re not getting true believers. I seriously doubt there’s a way NICS could keep records illegally and the world not already know. Besides if it was a covert inventory you only know they were approved to buy a firearm but not the specific firearm.

That's what I was trying to say earlier. In 2015, the ATF reported there were over 56,000 dealers. That's 56,000 Freds that would need to keep the secret. Or you need 100 dedicated agents who each have to break into one business a night for a year to collect the sales records from each dealer only to have to start again the next year. The feds keeping a list of guns and who owns them is not reasonable. They could keep a list of approvals, which would at least give a good idea of who is likely to be a gun owner. It's not likely there would be a guy sitting down writing all the checks. In 2019, there were over 28,000,000 checks, according to the FBI. That's 1 every 1.13 seconds.

Jlong1691 · Aug 20, 2020

All of the records turned in by FFL's got to the Trace Center in Martinsburg, West Virginia. There they live in C-Cans until they are transferred to micro film, much like old news papers at the library. The law says that the ATF may not keep a searchable database. In all the years I have done business as an FFL, There has been no reason for me to believe the ATF is violating those laws.

The reason they are so particular about having forms filled out completely, and correctly. Is simply because they depend on our record keeping when there is a case they need to prosecute based on a firearms charge. If there are mistakes on the forms, that evidence will be inadmissible. Or that is how it was explained to me by the Manager of the New Orleans field office. according to her many times people have beaten charges due to inaccuracies on the 4473 collected from the dealer.

Even with universal background checks, tracking ownership will be a pain. Unless there is a Nation Registry. Absent a National Registry, it's my word against theirs. I did buy that gun from blah blah, on whenever. I don't deny that, but I dropped it out my boat while I was on a fishing trip. Later that night I was talking about it at the bar. Such and Such must have heard me and went find it.

If they tried to use the nics check as it is currently, they best they could hope for is, we show you should own 5 long guns, 8 handguns, and have bought 3 receivers of some kind. If the check becomes more involved then that, it becomes a national registry, and is open to further litigation at that point. A National Gun registry is the single most bad thing that could happen for gun owners, and our rights. The DC gun registry was challenged recently, after the ban was ruled unconstitutional. Some of the registry items ere deemed unconstitutional, however the meat and bones of it were ruled constitutional in 2015. I don't think it was pressed on from the court of appeals in DC to the Supreme court at this time.

Horrible · Aug 20, 2020

Bangswitch said:
Ok someone help me out. I don’t know where the disconnect is.

1. I go to Fred’s Firearm Emporium ask to see a gat and decide to buy it.
2. Fred says fill this form out (4473)
3. I fillout
4. Fred calls in the NICS
5. They give the ole Proceed
6. Fred files his form (digital or analog)
7. Fred collects the chedda and I leave.

This is where I’m getting lost

Does NICS keep note that I got a proceed?

Doe the ATF have someone sneak into Fred’s at night and copy all the new 4473’s?

Is Fred a government spy?

What am I missing?

The other side of the NICS call can’t be manned by very many people with a lot of horsepower. It sounds like a boring button pushing level job so you’re not getting true believers. I seriously doubt there’s a way NICS could keep records illegally and the world not already know. Besides if it was a covert inventory you only know they were approved to buy a firearm but not the specific firearm.

It would be really nice if someone would articulate where in the process my liberties are being violated. I’m nothing if not open minded.

What’s a *Gat*?

Jlong1691 · Aug 20, 2020

Horrible said:
What’s a *Gat*?

You know, a Heater, Blaster, Cannon, Strap, Hammer, Burner, Piece, Hardware, Rod.. That.

oleheat · Aug 20, 2020

Horrible said:
The left are masters of incrementalism. AWB is a foot in the door to broader restrictions on firearms. They can simply remake the definition of what an evil *assault weapon* and in some cases do it by Exec Action by *re-interpreting* existing legislation. Before you know it all firearms other than single shot .22s are classified as such and made illegal. That is the strategy, which is why no compromise is the correct stance IMO

I agree. One more reason why, IMHO, it's so important to re-elect Trump and continue flooding them with conservative judges around the country. What just happened out in CA wouldn't have been possible, otherwise....I love it! :cheers:

Magdump · Aug 20, 2020

I read the thread title again...because somehow we went from a list of gun owners to a list of everything Fred sold to Joe Public? Or did I miss more than that?

Horrible · Aug 20, 2020

oleheat said:
I agree. One more reason why, IMHO, it's so important to re-elect Trump and continue flooding them with conservative judges around the country. What just happened out in CA wouldn't have been possible, otherwise....I love it!

You couldn’t be more correct. Trump is a pompous, arrogant man. But for all of his faults, I take him over just about anyone out there right now.

To your point, it’s more than just SCOTUS, it’s the Judgships in the circuit courts. You can tell that the left fully realizes this with all of the BS that they are trying to get away with and the absurd lies that they are telling to try and get Sleepy Joe elected.

that said, it will be a tough road ahead. He needs to win FL, NC, OH, AZ and PA again to have a fighting chance. Lose PA or Ohio and he’ll need to pull both MI and WI again. It’s a tough putt, but I am hopeful that he can pull it off!

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