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  • Emperor

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    I'm thinking that the various "Emergency Declarations" from state and particularly federal, may have lessened the "OSHA" hard line!?!

    Just a guess, since this unprecedented event has "Trumped" many existing rules and regs., many of which are considered taboo to cross under normal circumstances! :p
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Being familiar with OSHA, there is no, you can't wear your own PPE intention behind this. The employers are required to provide PPE required to do your job safely. In my area this might meant they're willing to provide you the cheapest safety glasses that meet z87. It does not mean that you can't wear a pair of oakleys or other personal glasses that also meet or exceed the requirements. Same with fire retardant clothing, many folks will buy their own that fits better than a Cintas jumpsuit.

    In this case, it seems as though the employer is failing to provide PPE in enough quantity to support their workers, and thus likely failing to meet OSHA. But this may be a matter of what the CDC recommends not obligating the hospitals to provide the PPE yet. Likely because there aren't enough resources even if the CDC mandates it.


    I don’t know about having to provide PPE. Many companies do or provide you with an allowance to get your choice but many don’t. We don’t provide steel-toes or other clothing items (we do have some community FR coveralls) if you need to be in fire retardant gear and where not anticipating it. Harnesses and yo-yo’s, cheap safeties, foamies, and sometimes hard hats will be provided if you don’t have your own. But we won’t dress you or stock your tool box that’s on you.
     

    Emperor

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    More Stimulus fun:

    So, in the grand tradition of lawyers writing Bills for potential laws in lawyer speak / doubletalk; you have to be a damned cryptographer to understand some of this stuff. You cannot interpret this thing without referring to other laws. Namely; The Small Business Act, The Federal Deposit Insurance Act, and the Robert Stafford Act. Unfortunately, when it is all said and done, and to get answers as it pertains to your business, you will need a banker, a CPA, a lawyer, and a bureaucrat.

    If any of you are small business owners, you need to get in tune with this. It can and will negatively and / or positively affect your business. In coordination with the Paycheck Protection Program, the Loan Forgiveness portion of this law, allows you to take out a SBA loan directly from your bank and without a lot of red tape that is usually associated with a SBA loan. It also covers your payroll, payroll taxes, health insurance, interest on loans and debts, utilities, and other overhead; IF YOU KEEP YOUR EMPLOYEES EMPLOYED for the next 8 weeks.

    I am still drilling down on a few other points, but as it stands, this option is likely better than shuttering your business if you have the option of remaining open as an "essential" business. That said, and however, since gardening centers, and candle shops are still open (just to name a few), what is stopping others?
     

    Bangswitch

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    I’m thinking it’s because they don’t want to waste masks that are in short supply. It sounds like they don’t want you just wearing them all around the hospital so you can save them for dealing with someone with symptoms.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    That would be my thoughts they are attempting to ration them and isolate the infected people/areas.

    I think they are trying to make the best of a bad situation but I’m not sure it’s the right move. If I told everyone on my job site that is not a rigger you leave the hard hats at home and avoid where they are rigging I would probably get slapped down by OSHA.
     

    Bangswitch

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    More Stimulus fun:

    So, in the grand tradition of lawyers writing Bills for potential laws in lawyer speak / doubletalk; you have to be a damned cryptographer to understand some of this stuff. You cannot interpret this thing without referring to other laws. Namely; The Small Business Act, The Federal Deposit Insurance Act, and the Robert Stafford Act. Unfortunately, when it is all said and done, and to get answers as it pertains to your business, you will need a banker, a CPA, a lawyer, and a bureaucrat.

    If any of you are small business owners, you need to get in tune with this. It can and will negatively and / or positively affect your business. In coordination with the Paycheck Protection Program, the Loan Forgiveness portion of this law, allows you to take out a SBA loan directly from your bank and without a lot of red tape that is usually associated with a SBA loan. It also covers your payroll, payroll taxes, health insurance, interest on loans and debts, utilities, and other overhead; IF YOU KEEP YOUR EMPLOYEES EMPLOYED for the next 8 weeks.

    I am still drilling down on a few other points, but as it stands, this option is likely better than shuttering your business if you have the option of remaining open as an "essential" business. That said, and however, since gardening centers, and candle shops are still open (just to name a few), what is stopping others?

    Yes if we have been doing our due diligence on FFCR and the CARES. I’m damn near cross eyed and sick of reading. The SBA has not issued the forgiveness guidance yet but based on the bill alone, if you don’t fall below 75% of your payroll during the same period 2019 and you use the money for payroll, mortgage interest, or rent, they are going to forgive 100% of those things. We are searching for the big hairy ‘but’ in the bill, but I haven’t found it yet.
     

    Emperor

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    Yes if we have been doing our due diligence on FFCR and the CARES. I’m damn near cross eyed and sick of reading. The SBA has not issued the forgiveness guidance yet but based on the bill alone, if you don’t fall below 75% of your payroll during the same period 2019 and you use the money for payroll, mortgage interest, or rent, they are going to forgive 100% of those things. We are searching for the big hairy ‘but’ in the bill, but I haven’t found it yet.

    Stimulus Act specifically states it supercedes SBA Act as it pertains to "Loan Forgiveness." The guidelines for applying for the SBA loan is the same, just without all the intricacies and nonsense. Local financial institutions will actually cover the loans directly (not the SBA), and then will be compensated after the fact. This was designed to speed up the otherwise tedious and drawn out process of going through the SBA.

    My bank is struggling with it too; because ultimately they will be interpreting the provisions that are and aren't covered! I intend to make it very clear that if they (my bank), tell me something is covered BEFORE I sign those loan papers, but I ultimately find out they erred on a provision here or there, and after the fact, we will have a major problem. At the same time, you would want to include as much overhead as you possibly can to be covered. It doesn't make good business sense to keep employees on the payroll if you are still in the red because essential parts of your overhead was NOT covered.

    We'll see.
     

    thperez1972

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    Staff at Our Lady of the Lake hospital as well as satellite facilities and clinics are being threatened with their jobs for attempting to wear masks...
    That’s right. Even if they’ve purchased their own masks they’re being denied the right to protect themselves in a place where the viral load and potential for infection is at its highest. In contrast, all other area hospitals are attempting to protect their staff by any means available, even making it mandatory to wear protective equipment.
    On Friday, employees found wearing masks had them confiscated by administrative personnel. Pregnant nurses were told there are no exceptions.

    So here, no employees can wear masks at all. Any masks found were being confiscated. There is no distinction made between any types of masks or between masks provided by different entities.

    Uh, I’m living it dude. Totally true.
    Oh, home made masks huh? I bet that’s the excuse they’ll give if challenged on it, but what I said Is the truth and I stand by it. I’m not the only person that’s got N95 masks and being told not to wear masks period unless giving direct care to a known Covid patient. As far as *Hospital supplied masks* they came and grabbed up every N95 from every unit as soon as this began, so they aren’t supplying masks. And why would they deny an employee the right to protect themself? They refused to give the directive in writing when asked to. Is your wife a nurse at OLOL? Has she talked to any of the nurses here who have been harassed for wearing the proper mask on the job? I have not seen any homemade masks. But if that’s all I had I’d wear it. OSHA told me don’t sweat it, wear a mask if I want and just keep them informed if OLOL takes any action against me whatsoever.

    This implies you are basing your statements on your personal experience. If you do not work in the hospital and your experience is based on information you acquired outside of the hospital, your personal experience counts for nothing with respect to your above assertions.

    That would be my thoughts they are attempting to ration them and isolate the infected people/areas.

    I think they are trying to make the best of a bad situation but I’m not sure it’s the right move. If I told everyone on my job site that is not a rigger you leave the hard hats at home and avoid where they are rigging I would probably get slapped down by OSHA.

    This contradicts your initial claim. Because the source of your initial claim is someone on the inside, believing this to be true must mean the person on the inside is an unreliable source of complete and accurate information.

    I don’t know about having to provide PPE. Many companies do or provide you with an allowance to get your choice but many don’t. We don’t provide steel-toes or other clothing items (we do have some community FR coveralls) if you need to be in fire retardant gear and where not anticipating it. Harnesses and yo-yo’s, cheap safeties, foamies, and sometimes hard hats will be provided if you don’t have your own. But we won’t dress you or stock your tool box that’s on you.

    Using "we" in the context of suppling equipment for a plant or warehouse. That would also imply you do not work at OLOL and any personal experience referenced above means nothing.

    In a hospital, PPE should be changed for each and every patient. Otherwise, the PPE only helps to spread the disease. That puts PPE in high demand. With limited resource to obtain PPE, the decision to limit the use of PPE to areas where it is truly needed appears to be the most rational decision.
     

    DAVE_M

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    In a hospital, PPE should be changed for each and every patient. Otherwise, the PPE only helps to spread the disease. That puts PPE in high demand. With limited resource to obtain PPE, the decision to limit the use of PPE to areas where it is truly needed appears to be the most rational decision.

    I can tell you that changing PPE for patients isn’t happening.
     

    MOTOR51

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    At all hospitals *

    Surely it's happening somewhere.

    I would imagine that with short supply it’s not happening from one corona patient to another. The worse thing that could happen is a corona patient gets corona. I imagine once they leave the area of the corona positive patients it’s changed out or disinfected.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    thperez1972

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    I can tell you that changing PPE for patients isn’t happening.

    Doesn't surprise me, especially due to the shortage. But this protects the wearer while the virus is carried from person to person on the outside of the PPE. This would be an excellent reason to limit the use of masks outside of an area with known covid patients.
     

    MOTOR51

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    Doesn't surprise me, especially due to the shortage. But this protects the wearer while the virus is carried from person to person on the outside of the PPE. This would be an excellent reason to limit the use of masks outside of an area with known covid patients.

    Exactly


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    AustinBR

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    I would imagine that with short supply it’s not happening from one corona patient to another. The worse thing that could happen is a corona patient gets corona. I imagine once they leave the area of the corona positive patients it’s changed out or disinfected.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    I'd agree with that. If that is what Dave is getting at, I agree. The other risk is that someone could have COVID19 and something else, where the something else could be transmitted to others.
     

    Emperor

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    I can tell you that changing PPE for patients isn’t happening.

    At all hospitals *

    Surely it's happening somewhere.

    If the hospital staffer were working in a specific area dedicated to only those patients that tested "positive" for the virus, what would be the necessity to change the PPE after each individual visit? Other than interacting with other staffers (who may not be attending Covid patients), or other patients in different wings of the hospital, that is.

    Also, if it is accepted as fact the virus can only be aerosolized by a sneeze or cough, then the fear of infection from PPE itself is very low, unless an unprotected person is actively handling the spent PPE; or in a less likely occurrence, just incidentally brushes against the PPE of a staffer directly involved with caring for Covid patients. However, that would assume the others also working around the infected.

    To the argument that some hospital administrations are actively dissuading and or threatening their workers to work unprotected? No job is worth that! Maintain your health first and foremost, then call an attorney after it's over!
     

    Bangswitch

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    That would be my thoughts they are attempting to ration them and isolate the infected people/areas.

    I think they are trying to make the best of a bad situation but I’m not sure it’s the right move. If I told everyone on my job site that is not a rigger you leave the hard hats at home and avoid where they are rigging I would probably get slapped down by OSHA.

    I don’t know about having to provide PPE. Many companies do or provide you with an allowance to get your choice but many don’t. We don’t provide steel-toes or other clothing items (we do have some community FR coveralls) if you need to be in fire retardant gear and where not anticipating it. Harnesses and yo-yo’s, cheap safeties, foamies, and sometimes hard hats will be provided if you don’t have your own. But we won’t dress you or stock your tool box that’s on you.

    This contradicts your initial claim. Because the source of your initial claim is someone on the inside, believing this to be true must mean the person on the inside is an unreliable source of complete and accurate information.



    Using "we" in the context of suppling equipment for a plant or warehouse. That would also imply you do not work at OLOL and any personal experience referenced above means nothing.

    In a hospital, PPE should be changed for each and every patient. Otherwise, the PPE only helps to spread the disease. That puts PPE in high demand. With limited resource to obtain PPE, the decision to limit the use of PPE to areas where it is truly needed appears to be the most rational decision.

    I'm not sure what Is contradictory. "Required to provide employees with" and "required to make sure employees have" are not the same. If your employee is on a site that requires x, y and z PPE you are required to make sure they have it before they are allowed on site. That doesn't always put the burden of purchasing said PPE on the employer. This is an important distinction in the context of the previous quote. If its to the employers benefit the employer will provide PPE. For us things like N95's, foamies, cheap safety lenses, cheap gloves, harnesses and yo-yo's we tend to provide because the benefit of providing them out weighs the risk. IE: harnesses we issue and collect at the beginning and end of jobs that require work at heights, because we need to know the harness they have is up to standards and properly certified if some goober brings his tree stand harness to work because we require them to provide their own its going to be a headache.

    I'm no labor lawyer but remember I spend a fair amount of time dealing in this kind of stuff as my occupation. The point I made about the hard hats has nothing to do with who provided them, and everything to do with requiring them.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Doesn't surprise me, especially due to the shortage. But this protects the wearer while the virus is carried from person to person on the outside of the PPE. This would be an excellent reason to limit the use of masks outside of an area with known covid patients.

    If you don't require the PPE for people outside of an area but in close proximity, you have to provide signage and other means to prevent your employees or random people from wondering off into an area that requires additional protections. On a construction site we are talking barricades, tape, signs, possibly guards. In a hospital I would expect to see locked doors, tons of signs and likely guards.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If the hospital staffer were working in a specific area dedicated to only those patients that tested "positive" for the virus, what would be the necessity to change the PPE after each individual visit? Other than interacting with other staffers (who may not be attending Covid patients), or other patients in different wings of the hospital, that is.

    Also, if it is accepted as fact the virus can only be aerosolized by a sneeze or cough, then the fear of infection from PPE itself is very low, unless an unprotected person is actively handling the spent PPE; or in a less likely occurrence, just incidentally brushes against the PPE of a staffer directly involved with caring for Covid patients. However, that would assume the others also working around the infected.

    To the argument that some hospital administrations are actively dissuading and or threatening their workers to work unprotected? No job is worth that! Maintain your health first and foremost, then call an attorney after it's over!

    The necessity would be when one patient has something that others don’t, regardless if all have the virus or not.

    People act like COVID-19 is the only thing in the world affecting people.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If you don't require the PPE for people outside of an area but in close proximity, you have to provide signage and other means to prevent your employees or random people from wondering off into an area that requires additional protections. On a construction site we are talking barricades, tape, signs, possibly guards. In a hospital I would expect to see locked doors, tons of signs and likely guards.

    The general public are not allowed where COVID-19 patients are. PPE is worn when staff come in contact with patients. The only times I’ve heard of family members visiting is when they are about to take a patient off of life support. Even then, it’s a single family member wearing PPE.

    It’s a shitty situation.
     

    thperez1972

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    I'm not sure what Is contradictory. "Required to provide employees with" and "required to make sure employees have" are not the same. If your employee is on a site that requires x, y and z PPE you are required to make sure they have it before they are allowed on site. That doesn't always put the burden of purchasing said PPE on the employer. This is an important distinction in the context of the previous quote. If its to the employers benefit the employer will provide PPE. For us things like N95's, foamies, cheap safety lenses, cheap gloves, harnesses and yo-yo's we tend to provide because the benefit of providing them out weighs the risk. IE: harnesses we issue and collect at the beginning and end of jobs that require work at heights, because we need to know the harness they have is up to standards and properly certified if some goober brings his tree stand harness to work because we require them to provide their own its going to be a headache.

    I'm no labor lawyer but remember I spend a fair amount of time dealing in this kind of stuff as my occupation. The point I made about the hard hats has nothing to do with who provided them, and everything to do with requiring them.

    That's my bad. For some reason I was mixing up you and magdump.
     

    Bangswitch

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    The general public are not allowed where COVID-19 patients are. PPE is worn when staff come in contact with patients. The only times I’ve heard of family members visiting is when they are about to take a patient off of life support. Even then, it’s a single family member wearing PPE.

    It’s a shitty situation.

    Yeah no doubt. It really is.

    I think about other people’s last few weeks, and realize lucky I am. We were lucky to get a family member out the hospital right before things started getting dicey here.

    And yeah we are struggling at work to make sure we keep things going and people working, but compared to others we have been blessed.
     
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