Site Anti-Scamming Question (requesting member input)

AustinBR · Apr 13, 2020

Lately we have seen elevated numbers of scammers trying to join and scam members here. The way it typically works is someone joins offering to buy an item that is for sale, or sell an item (usually for a 'good deal'). We have various preventative tools that we use, but one of them is a limit on who can and cannot send private messages (PMs) to users.

Currently, a user must have greater than 1 post on the forum to send PMs. With this requirement, if someone wants to join solely to buy/sell an item they have to make a post on the board (typically an introduction thread or a direct reply to the WTS/WTB ad). After they make their post, they are free to PM other forum users at will.

What we see happening is that they are joining, making an introduction thread, and then PMing users trying to buy/sell stuff and get the user to contact them via email...mostly so it's easier for them to reply and so it's harder for us to prevent them from conversing. They then go down the path of trying to scam people.

Anyway, now that there is a bit of context, I'll get to what I am considering. Right now you need one post to send a PM. I'm considering raising the number.

Pros: Harder for scammers to scam.
Cons: Harder for someone coming here solely to buy/sell something to privately get in touch with buyer/sellers.

What are your thoughts? Is it worth making it a bit harder for honest new-users to buy/sell things on here to make it harder for scammers to have access to PMs?

Another consideration is that some scammers play a long-game and make accounts, make a few posts, and then come back in a year +. Then they have accounts that look more legitimate because they aren't brand new. We can't really prevent that, but we can still make the burden a bit harder to send PMs by raising the minimum post count.

Jack · Apr 13, 2020

The masses shouldn’t suffer for the ignorant. People believing they’re related to Nigerian princes shouldn’t serve as justification to end email servers. Beyond that, this would either create a bunch of spam postings to get counts up or burden an already stale marketplace via arbitrary account age restrictions.

The better solution is for people to be more responsible and stop mailing stuff until funds have cleared or buying stuff from people they don’t know and trust. This shouldn’t need to be explained, but we are buying/selling weapons and accessories to those weapons. Show a little personal responsibility and consistency. Either you’re an adult, capable of operating in the world, or you’re not. If you’re not, then you shouldn’t be buying or selling anything more dangerous than pool noodles.

A Czechoslovakian man falls into a lion cage and is eaten. A derp sees this runs to tell the staff at the zoo. The staff says they need to put down the lion to get the man out and give his remains to his family. They ask the derp which lion ate the man, the big male or the young female. The derp points to the big male and says that one. They cut the lion open and find his stomach empty. What’s the moral of the story? Quit ****ing trusting derps when they tell you the Czech is in the male.

Gator 45/70 · Apr 13, 2020

I voted to raise the limit.

krotsman · Apr 13, 2020

I don't think it really matters. One post, ten posts... If they speak english, they'll figure it out. That being said, make them take a few more minutes out of their lives to post more and that's less time they'll have to scam someone else. Go for it.

DAVE_M · Apr 13, 2020

Raise the post limit to 50 posts before they can gain access to the classifieds section.

I've had numerous random accounts PM me stating they would pay full price for what I'm asking including a phone number asking to call them.

Also, remove thread replies' ability to bump posts and implement a bump button. It's been implemented on other vBulletin forums and I've mentioned this hundreds of times on this forum. If it's not compatible with this vBulletin version, it's time to upgrade. It will also be nice for all classifieds to cease being shown on the main page.

Mxav · Apr 13, 2020

I like your idea AustinBR. Me personally, if the buyer/seller doesn't have a few feedback scores, I dont continue with the deal.

JBP55 · Apr 13, 2020

Voted to Raise Minimum Posts to PM.

Emperor · Apr 13, 2020

Every transaction I have made has been within the state of Louisiana. Some of them I have never met the person. I have sent my delivery drivers, friends to meet the person AFTER we discuss the details on the phone of where, when, and how.

What are we talking about here? Scams via snail mail or other common carriers? I really don't understand how you get screwed unless you are not dotting your I's and crossing your T's!?!

AustinBR · Apr 13, 2020

Emperor said:
Every transaction I have made has been within the state of Louisiana. Some of them I have never met the person. I have sent my delivery drivers, friends to meet the person AFTER we discuss the details on the phone of where, when, and how.

What are we talking about here? Scams via snail mail or other common carriers? I really don't understand how you get screwed unless you are not dotting your I's and crossing your T's!?!

Almost all of the scams involve sending cash somewhere and an item being sent back.

I'm not aware of any of our members falling for it, but it's still an annoyance. Due to the potential impact of making the limits harder, I'm leaning towards not changing anything. The duty of not being scammed falls on each buyer/seller, but it's nice to do our part.

krotsman · Apr 13, 2020

AustinBR said:
Almost all of the scams involve sending cash somewhere and an item being sent back.

I'm not aware of any of our members falling for it, but it's still an annoyance. Due to the potential impact of making the limits harder, I'm leaning towards not changing anything. The duty of not being scammed falls on each buyer/seller, but it's nice to do our part.

Also, I think we have a good little network here. I have bought a few things via mail. You and I have checked with each other, and I have checked with other folks, to vet potential sellers/buyers, I don't think I would ever buy a firearm via mail from an individual, but that's just me.

That's also why leaving feedback for buyers/sellers is so important.

AustinBR · Apr 13, 2020

krotsman said:
Also, I think we have a good little network here. I have bought a few things via mail. You and I have checked with each other, and I have checked with other folks, to vet potential sellers/buyers, I don't think I would ever buy a firearm via mail from an individual, but that's just me.

That's also why leaving feedback for buyers/sellers is so important.

Yeah, I agree. I'd buy via mail from a lot of people here, but only because they have been around long enough for me to know they won't try to scam me.

Emperor · Apr 13, 2020

AustinBR said:
Almost all of the scams involve sending cash somewhere and an item being sent back.

Yeah, that's a rough deal! Personally, I doubt I could send a stranger or a free standing individual (without a legitimate storefront), any funds up front for anything.

Bangswitch · Apr 13, 2020

AustinBR said:
Yeah, I agree. I'd buy via mail from a lot of people here, but only because they have been around long enough for me to know they won't try to scam me.

Yeah generally I only deal in ftf transitions. But there are those I would and have made exceptions for. There is no rule stringent enough for it to change any outcome for me, but I’m cautious to a fault and a serious tightwad.

You should add another category for those of us who don’t really care one way or the other.

Cheesy Lasagna · Apr 13, 2020

I’ve bought via mail only a few times.
It’s always with members I have met.
No exceptions.

snipehunter7 · Apr 13, 2020

You could always use a spelling and grammar test to weed them out.

Seriously, reading some of the posts can be a challenge...

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TheMole68 · Apr 13, 2020

The upped limit sounds fine. If they want to get in touch they can post and request the seller contact them still?

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Gerberman · Apr 13, 2020

I'd vote to raise to 10 minimum posts of substance.

DAVE_M · Apr 13, 2020

Gerberman said:
I'd vote to raise to 10 minimum posts of substance.

That's the ultimate problem.

With a 10 post limit, new members will go into the new member section and reply "welcome" ten times to meet the post count.

BrandonPle · Apr 13, 2020

DAVE_M said:
That's the ultimate problem.

With a 10 post limit, new members will go into the new member section and reply "welcome" ten times to meet the post count.

Well that'd make a scammer easier to spot wouldn't it ?? Or at least easier to ban dumb-asses that intend to abuse the forum .

I'd vote to raise it to10 min
50 is ridiculous .

It took me a year or longer on here b4 I even got to 10 post . Simply because I was still learning and reading . I just didn't have anything good to offer , and there's already enough smart asses !
As my knowledge of guns expanded I actually had questions and other things to contribute.
Should someone be disqualified from pm's because they're still learning and just don't have anything worthwhile to contribute yet ?

I also won't deal with anyone who isn't at least a member and willing to meet face to face .

MillYak · Apr 13, 2020

From a Noob’s perspective…..

I joined this site learn in part to learn, but primarily to make a purchase. I could have made the purchase via the internet, most likely for a lower price, but would rather give my business to local folks. If 10 posts were required, I probably would have bought elsewhere. I do not want to have to make up reasons to post. If I have a question, I will ask, if I have something to add to a conversation I will do so. But I am a Noob. I have very little to add to the conversation at this point.

A few questions (you don’t have to answer them, I am just thinking out loud)…

Has scamming been a significant issue? If yes, are the scammers typically people with low post counts, or have there been cases where a scammer had a higher post count? Would requiring 10 or 50 posts help? 10 would probably not help. 50 would probably weed some out the lazy scammers, but probably wouldn’t weed out the type of person that scams for a living….in their minds, that is their job.

What is the negative consequence of requiring more posts? Use the stats available to you. You could review the stats from your feedback mechanism to see good and bad transactions versus post counts. If you see many successful transactions with buyers/sellers/traders that have low post counts, those are good transactions that may have been eliminated by new requirements. People in general prefer to converse via PM to help protect their identities and would likely not be comfortable putting their cell or contact info out there for everyone to see.

Could an alternative be to require a min number of posts OR a paid membership (requires that the person provide additional info I presume) OR enable current members to vouch for new members?

Site Anti-Scamming Question (requesting member input)

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Raise minimum posts to PM?

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