Training - Those who get it and those who don't

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  • DAVE_M

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    Same here.
    I went 11B straight out of high school.
    We trained a lot and I got a good foundation but what you find from training is that it fades.
    You constantly need to retrain to keep your skillset.

    Training sets the coursework. It's up to you to do the homework. I'm not a shining example of perfection, but I know shooters that are. They put in the work multiple days a week and constantly attend training. They never become complacent.

    There are members of this forum that think shooting the same six plates of a plate rack slow fire with random pistols is adequate for them to take on a slew of bad guys. Those are the people that need to be filling basic pistol classes every weekend.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    So did you meet Clint Smith? I’d like to sit and talk to that guy.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Sadly no, although I did meet Heidi at the Texas Ranch years ago. I don’t really know how present he is at the training but I hear Clint has a real nice collection of H&K weapons I’d like to see.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I was lucky to have family in law enforcement and the military who started me off on the right foot at an early age learning to shoot. I was also fortunate enough to befriend a couple of guys over the years that were definitely qualified and glad to give that one to one instruction and also able to critique my abilities and shortcomings in the best ways. That continued well into my 30’s and has been a good foundation to add to throughout my life. Having a private range is also a huge plus. Training with a sheriff dept and paying for training and little vacations at thunder ranch has been great, but the solid one on one instruction I’ve received, especially early in my life, has been the most effective training and what tends to be the base for everything carry and shooting related for me. My point is, training is good. It’s a must. With it comes the need for mental conditioning as well. Classes are great. There’s a lot more to keeping yourself armed In the event you may need to defend yourself or others from the bad guy. Don’t rule out a little personalized training from trusted qualified people in your life. Especially when it comes to the basics.

    For someone who claims to have trained a good bit, I do find it odd that you were adamantly against using a shot timer.

    I'm pleasantly surprised to see you did attend training at some point.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    For someone who claims to have trained a good bit, I do find it odd that you were adamantly against using a shot timer.

    I'm pleasantly surprised to see you did attend training at some point.
    I have no idea what you’re talking about Dave. I’m not a race gun shooter nor do I shoot competitively, nor have I ever claimed to. And I can honestly say I don’t own nor have I ever used a shot timer. I also don’t recall ever having offered an opinion on shot timers here, but if I did I’m sure you’ve archived it, for whatever reason. So I find a great deal odd about you as well. If you think a shot timer is absolutely necessary in becoming proficient with a firearm, by all means, use a shot timer. So are you calling me out about my simple claims of having been responsible enough over a lifetime of shooting to learn from people and to train and better myself in a sport that I enjoy? I’m glad I pleasantly surprised you but I can’t imagine why you think I care what you think. Or how you believe you know what other people think...
    For someone who thinks they offer so much to this site, you sure do seem to go out of your way to provoke people. Is it that I haven’t shown you any attention lately and ignored your last attempt at getting a response from me?
     
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    DAVE_M

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    I have no idea what you’re talking about Dave. I’m not a race gun shooter nor do I shoot competitively, nor have I ever claimed to. And I can honestly say I don’t own nor have I ever used a shot timer. I also don’t recall ever having offered an opinion on shot timers here, but if I did I’m sure you’ve archived it, for whatever reason. So I find a great deal odd about you as well. If you think a shot timer is absolutely necessary in becoming proficient with a firearm, by all means, use a shot timer. So are you calling me out about my simple claims of having been responsible enough over a lifetime of shooting to learn from people and to train and better myself in a sport that I enjoy? I’m glad I pleasantly surprised you but I can’t imagine why you think I care what you think. Or how you believe you know what other people think...
    For someone who thinks they offer so much to this site, you sure do seem to go out of your way to provoke people. Is it that I haven’t shown you any attention lately and ignored your last attempt at getting a response from me?

    I may be thinking of someone else. Carry on.
     

    AustinBR

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    I have no idea what you’re talking about Dave. I’m not a race gun shooter nor do I shoot competitively, nor have I ever claimed to. And I can honestly say I don’t own nor have I ever used a shot timer. I also don’t recall ever having offered an opinion on shot timers here, but if I did I’m sure you’ve archived it, for whatever reason. So I find a great deal odd about you as well. If you think a shot timer is absolutely necessary in becoming proficient with a firearm, by all means, use a shot timer. So are you calling me out about my simple claims of having been responsible enough over a lifetime of shooting to learn from people and to train and better myself in a sport that I enjoy? I’m glad I pleasantly surprised you but I can’t imagine why you think I care what you think. Or how you believe you know what other people think...
    For someone who thinks they offer so much to this site, you sure do seem to go out of your way to provoke people. Is it that I haven’t shown you any attention lately and ignored your last attempt at getting a response from me?

    Don't you two have each other on ignore or did I have a good dream?
     

    southerncanuck

    www.RangeSport.com (Use code "BayouShooter")
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    1) Training is time consuming. One of the biggest issues with attending training is that it is time consuming. Unless the course is on a specialty topic, most courses are 8 hours long and sometimes consecutive days. This is difficult for those who work, have children, and have other obligations.

    I'll chime in on this as a newer shooter, but one who is fairly deeply invested in both sport and self-defence aspects of shooting. I for one desperately want more training. I love getting my ass kicked, I love a steep learning curve, I love being around experts, and I love being coached. I want to try competition one day maybe if I can. I want to be able to defend my family instinctively and confidently.

    For me, the biggest hurdle is the large time blocks required by off-the-shelf courses. I have time to train, and I go to the range at least once a week, but that's only about a two hour commitment (30 mins each way, hour at the range). I've found a bunch of great courses but most are weekend affairs and thus inaccessible for logistical reasons. I was just reading a book by the founders of KR Training in Texas and something they said in the book resonated with Dave's comment here. I'll copy it below:

    More than a decade ago, KR training converted most of the courses it offers into 3- and 4- hour blocks designed as a series. Teaching everything someone needs to know in a 4-hour class is an impossible task. Consequently, the burden is on the instructor to prioritize skills in their course design. The competition for course time is comprised of family and job responsibilities, other interests, and, of course, dollars. The reality is that more people can spend 4 hours, $100, and 200 rounds on a Saturday training class than there are people who can spend $500, 20 hours, and 1,000 rounds on an all weekend course.

    I actually had this highlighted in the book, because I would kill for something like this within driving distance here in LA: a series of sequential shorter classes over a month or two. For someone like me, there's a big gap between supply and demand for accessible training locally -- we don't really have anything between "Pistols 101" and "Commando Camp Weekend" (that I can find easily, at least). Since I can't commit to a full weekend course, other than one-on-one instruction by the hour, I'm basically relegated to a LOT of reading, a lot of videos, dedicated drills at range time, and loads of dry fire practice. It's not about money or willingness, it's just about availability.
     
    Last edited:

    AustinBR

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    I'll chime in on this as a newer shooter, but one who is fairly deeply invested in both sport and self-defence aspects of shooting. I for one desperately want more training. I love getting my ass kicked, I love a steep learning curve, I love being around experts, and I love being coached. I want to try competition one day maybe if I can. I want to be able to defend my family instinctively and confidently.

    For me, the biggest hurdle is the large time blocks required by off-the-shelf courses. I have time to train, and I go to the range at least once a week, but that's only about a two hour commitment (30 mins each way, hour at the range). I've found a bunch of great courses but most are weekend affairs and thus inaccessible for logistical reasons. I was just reading a book by the founders of KR Training in Texas and something they said in the book resonated with Dave's comment here. I'll copy it below:

    More than a decade ago, KR training converted most of the courses it offers into 3- and 4- hour blocks designed as a series. Teaching everything someone needs to know in a 4-hour class is an impossible task. Consequently, the burden is on the instructor to prioritize skills in their course design. The competition for course time is comprised of family and job responsibilities, other interests, and, of course, dollars. The reality is that more people can spend 4 hours, $100, and 200 rounds on a Saturday training class than there are people who can spend $500, 20 hours, and 1,000 rounds on an all weekend course.

    I actually had this highlighted in the book, because I would kill for something like this within driving distance here in LA: a series of sequential shorter classes over a month or two. For someone like me, there's a big gap between supply and demand for accessible training locally -- we don't really have anything between "Pistols 101" and "Commando Camp Weekend" (that I can find easily, at least). Since I can't commit to a full weekend course, other than one-on-one instruction by the hour, I'm basically relegated to a LOT of reading, a lot of videos, dedicated drills at range time, and loads of dry fire practice. It's not about money or willingness, it's just about availability.

    I think FRC in BR has a similar program of shorter (and cheaper) classes. You should look into it.

    I also want to add that what you are doing is great, but it doesn't replace instructor-led classes. Practicing something from a video/book/internet is good, but it's hard to self-judge if your form is good or if you are making mistakes that you aren't aware of.

    Another benefit of the longer classes is that you end up training under more stress and pressure. An 8 hour class of all-day drilling is definitely an all-day affair, but a lot can come from it, across different spectrums.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I'll chime in on this as a newer shooter, but one who is fairly deeply invested in both sport and self-defence aspects of shooting. I for one desperately want more training. I love getting my ass kicked, I love a steep learning curve, I love being around experts, and I love being coached. I want to try competition one day maybe if I can. I want to be able to defend my family instinctively and confidently.

    For me, the biggest hurdle is the large time blocks required by off-the-shelf courses. I have time to train, and I go to the range at least once a week, but that's only about a two hour commitment (30 mins each way, hour at the range). I've found a bunch of great courses but most are weekend affairs and thus inaccessible for logistical reasons. I was just reading a book by the founders of KR Training in Texas and something they said in the book resonated with Dave's comment here. I'll copy it below:

    More than a decade ago, KR training converted most of the courses it offers into 3- and 4- hour blocks designed as a series. Teaching everything someone needs to know in a 4-hour class is an impossible task. Consequently, the burden is on the instructor to prioritize skills in their course design. The competition for course time is comprised of family and job responsibilities, other interests, and, of course, dollars. The reality is that more people can spend 4 hours, $100, and 200 rounds on a Saturday training class than there are people who can spend $500, 20 hours, and 1,000 rounds on an all weekend course.

    I actually had this highlighted in the book, because I would kill for something like this within driving distance here in LA: a series of sequential shorter classes over a month or two. For someone like me, there's a big gap between supply and demand for accessible training locally -- we don't really have anything between "Pistols 101" and "Commando Camp Weekend" (that I can find easily, at least). Since I can't commit to a full weekend course, other than one-on-one instruction by the hour, I'm basically relegated to a LOT of reading, a lot of videos, dedicated drills at range time, and loads of dry fire practice. It's not about money or willingness, it's just about availability.

    Prior to switching gears, VATA offered a lot of what you seek. Phobos Solutions and Advantage Group are still holding courses regularly. Phobos has been out at MCTA and Advantage Group is between places, sometimes at a private range near Hammond and sometimes in Baton Rouge at FRC. You will also find courses at FRC from basic courses to sims in the shoothouse.

    Outside of a weekend course I took with VATA, most pistol classes revolve around fundamentals. There are a lot less tactics involed in these classes than people want to believe. You have to learn to crawl before you walk. Walk before you run. If new shooters sign up for some high speed class they are jumping into the deep end with lead weights around their ankles. It will be nothing more than tactical larping and ammunition being wasted.

    As a civilian who only carries a pistol for self defense, I want to learn all there is to pistol shooting. That involves taking tactics based courses as well as the *boring* fundamentals classes. Everyone wants to shoot a lot of ammo really fast thanks to Magpul Dynamics DVD’s and the wonderful world of YouTube, but they are not willing to or can’t find the time to get to that level of proficiency.

    I didn’t buy into a shot timer until it had been recommended to me by multiple competitive shooters as well as having used them in multiple defensive courses. They are an invaluable training tool. They can make a short day on the range with limited ammunition much more beneficial than burning up a few mags at paper with no purpose.
     

    Tboy

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    I didn’t buy into a shot timer until it had been recommended to me by multiple competitive shooters as well as having used them in multiple defensive courses. They are an invaluable training tool. They can make a short day on the range with limited ammunition much more beneficial than burning up a few mags at paper with no purpose.

    I have a shot timer but didn’t buy it to compete only to benchmark some specific things I was working on and to push myself.

    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.

    All that to say training can add some pressure and putting numbers on a clock can add more pressure which is a good thing. Learning to work under pressure and have that rush of a feeling, recognize it, drop back to the fundamentals and work through it usually means a favorable outcome.
     

    RaleighReloader

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    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.

    One of my favorite training lines came to me from Steve "Yeti" Fisher. It was:

    "Slow is steady. Steady is fast."

    When I'm training, I always try to keep that in mind ... that it's better to start slowly and get the motions right, and then to practice those movements many times. The speed will come slowly without sacrificing the accuracy.

    Of course, that also requires the self-discipline to relax one's ego.

    Mike
     

    DAVE_M

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    I have a shot timer but didn’t buy it to compete only to benchmark some specific things I was working on and to push myself.

    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.

    All that to say training can add some pressure and putting numbers on a clock can add more pressure which is a good thing. Learning to work under pressure and have that rush of a feeling, recognize it, drop back to the fundamentals and work through it usually means a favorable outcome.

    That little timer makes people panic.

    I don’t compete, but I keep track of performance. I like knowing that I can shoot better than I did.

    One of my favorite training lines came to me from Steve "Yeti" Fisher. It was:

    "Slow is steady. Steady is fast."

    When I'm training, I always try to keep that in mind ... that it's better to start slowly and get the motions right, and then to practice those movements many times. The speed will come slowly without sacrificing the accuracy.

    Of course, that also requires the self-discipline to relax one's ego.

    Mike

    I won’t discount Steve, because what he’s saying has some merit, but Fast is Fast. If you want to shoot fast, you need to be fast. Chasing numbers will frustrate you, so work on things you hate. Realistically, every concealed carry should be working on strong hand only and support hand only shooting. The possibility of shooting with a single hand is high.
     

    DAVE_M

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    You should! It is not only very demanding, but is also a kick in the ass!

    PM beauxdog and see when they are practicing. Then join in. I promise, you will not regret it! ;)

    If anyone is in the BR area, FRC runs small practice matches every Tuesday night. There are usually ten or more shooters there. Beauxdog and the folks at FRC are good people.
     

    RaleighReloader

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    I won’t discount Steve, because what he’s saying has some merit, but Fast is Fast. If you want to shoot fast, you need to be fast. Chasing numbers will frustrate you, so work on things you hate. Realistically, every concealed carry should be working on strong hand only and support hand only shooting. The possibility of shooting with a single hand is high.

    I think we're violently agreeing.

    His point (or, at least, his point as I interpreted it) is that when you're training, you start slow and steady, so that you can properly develop the motions. With practice, the speed will come.

    Mike
     

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