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  1. #1
    Moving forward

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    Training - Those who get it and those who don't

    From a previous thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    As I’ve previously stated, I’m okay with the Bill.

    I’m not okay with people who choose to carry a gun and don’t seek training.
    I think the folks who get training vs those who don't comes down to demographics and their circle of influence. It could probably be explained with numbers, that I don't have.

    I believe the amount of people with permits are hugely disproportionate to the amount of people that get training and the type/age/sex of folks that I've seen receiving training are normally of a similar age group and color. Birds of a feather and all.

    2019 stats for 5 year CHP permit renewals
    Total By Age
    [21-30] 276
    [31-40] 1116
    [41-50] 1576
    [51-60] 2314
    [61-70] 2493
    [71-80] 1505
    [81-90] 236
    [91 and above] 10

    Total By Race
    [American Indian/Alaskan] 42 < 1%
    [Asian/Pacific Islander] 69 < 1%
    [Black] 762 7%
    [Unknown/Other] 97 1%
    [White] 8556 89%

    Total By Sex
    [Female] 2396 25%
    [Male] 7130 74%

    The group I normally see is the 31-50 folks for standard tac pistol/rifle classes. The stats show there are nearly 2/3 in the upper age range for renewals. 51-91 y/o

    Total number of permits issued since inception 205,145 - from 2019 stats

    Total By Age
    [21-30] 14016
    [31-40] 30223
    [41-50] 35135
    [51-60] 40364
    [61-70] 43177
    [71-80] 30399
    [81-90] 9451
    [91 and above] 2380
    Last edited by Tboy; May 21st, 2020 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Moving forward

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    I would also add... it can come down to how good of an ambassador we are for the shooting sports and training advocates in our own circles of influence.

  3. #3
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    I don't expect this thread to get many replies, but I'll give it a shot.

    Before I start rambling about training, I am speaking on my own personal experiences related to pistol shooting and concealed carry course only.

    I'd also like acknowledge a few things that will inevitably arise when these discussions take place.

    1) Training is time consuming.

    One of the biggest issues with attending training is that it is time consuming. Unless the course is on a specialty topic, most courses are 8 hours long and sometimes consecutive days. This is difficult for those who work, have children, and have other obligations. By the same token, people will make time for festivals, concerts, parades, parties, and sporting events, but somehow can't find the time to take a training course. Strange...

    2) Training is relatively expensive.

    Relative to what the average gun owner shoots in a month, training is expensive. If you took the average number of rounds fired for the common concealed carrier, it would be somewhere between 10-50 rounds. If 9mm is around $10-15 per box, training costs 10-12 times the average amount spent per month on practice. I've taken courses that range from $100/8 hr day to $400/6 hr day. Training can be expensive.

    Training is designed to educate and prepare you to enhance your abilities as a shooter. Many people will spend thousands of dollars for their children to attend training camps, but find it unnecessary to better themselves as a shooter. If the goal is to protect yourself and your family, why wouldn't you want to be the most proficient shooter you can be?

    3) Training takes effort & 4) People don't like to be told they are wrong.

    I rolled these in together, because they go hand in hand. Most concealed carriers carry the firearm as a talisman that they believe will ward off evil. When I first started my training journey, I had a somewhat sound idea of why I was choosing to carry a firearm. I didn't start carrying till a few years after I was legally able to buy a pistol and had owned a pistol since I turned 21. Before taking my concealed handgun permit class, I did a lot of research and ended up with a quality pistol and holster. When I arrived at the class, I was surprised to see that I was one of two people under the age of 30. The other person being a man that was about to turn 21 taking the course with one of his parents. During the classroom portion, there were a lot of bizarre comments from students, but that's what I expect from a course where most shooters (including myself) had never attended formal training. When we arrived on the range, I realized I was the only student with a full size pistol. Many had pocket pistols or small revolvers, but two students actually had Glock 19's. The shooting portion was awful. The CHP course is laughable. One students could not even hit the B-27 at 3 yards because his flinch looked like he was cracking a whip.

    Fast forward and I was offered to attend a pistol course with a local instructor. I had the typical attitude that I know what I'm doing, but my targets proved otherwise. Prior to the class, I regularly shot at distance, but never at speed. Once speed was introduced, I feel apart. Rather than get upset, I took it as a wake up call to better myself. I decided to take as much pistol training as possible, because in the event that I ever needed to use my firearm, the last thing I want to do is panic and miss. All of the money spent on ammo and training was eye opening. Without it, I wouldn't be able to shoot as well as I do now. Even so, there are many that can shoot 10 times better than I can and a lot of them are local. If you can't outshoot Jerry Miculek or Bob Vogel, then you have room for improvement.

    As far as 2/3 of renewals being in the upper age limit, that just goes to show you how many younger people don't really care about defending themselves or are too stupid to understand why carrying concealed on their person is the best choice to defend themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tboy View Post
    I would also add... it can come down to how good of an ambassador we are for the shooting sports and training advocates in our own circles of influence.
    I, along with others, push for training on this forum often. It's typically met with backlash. That speaks volumes.

  4. #4
    Marksman

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    Training - Those who get it and those who don't

    Taking a class is fine but most miss the bigger picture. Most of the time people have been shooting a certain way for years and then realize they have been doing it wrong once they get formal training. No trainer in the world can overcome muscle memory in a short class. You have to take what you have learned from proper training and practice on your own. I love how people go through an 8hr class and now are ready to join the CAG.


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  5. #5
    Marksman

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    It doesn't take a lot of science to know that most people don't train because they're lazy. People wrongly assume that they can buy the "right" gun, and this will alleviate the need to train. That's why people obsess over what is the best gun for self-defense, when in reality the vast majority of firearms can be effective self-defense tools *if* the person using it is proficient.

    This isn't just limited to beginners. How many "expert" shooters obsess over the aftermarket trigger in their Glock, when in reality the time and money spent on fiddling with the trigger would have been better spent on training and practice?

    There are always two limiting factors: the gun itself, and the person holding the gun. In the vast majority of cases, it's the person holding the gun that is the problem.

    But, as has been already noted, most people don't respond well to constructive criticism. Our post-truth society has embraced the idea that "if I think it, then I must be right."

    Now, all of that said ... I think we could do a *lot* for gun safety if the government would sponsor free gun safety classes, in the same way that many states already sponsor hunter education classes.

    Mike
    ΦΒΚ. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOTOR51 View Post
    Taking a class is fine but most miss the bigger picture. Most of the time people have been shooting a certain way for years and then realize they have been doing it wrong once they get formal training. No trainer in the world can overcome muscle memory in a short class. You have to take what you have learned from proper training and practice on your own. I love how people go through an 8hr class and now are ready to join the CAG.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Not only that, but I've been to classes with some of the same people and it's as if they learned nothing. They were there for entertainment, not to get better. You've said it before, it's funny when you see the people with full kit at a class full of civvies. I got more weird looks shooting a defensive course in shorts with a concealed gun and mags than I did if I showed up with a plate carrier. I also get weird looks showing up to a class wearing jeans lol

    The evolution of my gear went from a padded belt with a Safariland holster, to an inner/outer belt with a Safariland holster, to using only concealment gear. Some classes require OWB, so I still keep a belt, holster, and mag pouches, but training and practicing with gear you don't carry is silly if you also don't train with the gear you actually carry.
    Last edited by DAVE_M; May 21st, 2020 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #7
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    Good info and valid points.

    There are some folks that just don't get the mechanics involved with handgun shooting or manipulation of the weapon and they are fairly easy to spot within the first few minutes of a class. Those are often the ones that get discouraged and at the end of the day are still struggling with little improvement.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tboy View Post
    Good info and valid points.

    There are some folks that just don't get the mechanics involved with handgun shooting or manipulation of the weapon and they are fairly easy to spot within the first few minutes of a class. Those are often the ones that get discouraged and at the end of the day are still struggling with little improvement.
    I think the issue has more to do with mindset.

    I retook an introduction pistol class that goes fundamental shooting, nothing more. In the class was a lady in her 50's who had never fired a pistol prior to the class. She was the teacher of one of the instructor's children and a family friend. She approached the instructor one day, who is in law enforcement, and asked for him to teach her how to handle a pistol, because she had seen the uptick in shootings and wanted to learn to defend herself in her home if needed. As a teacher herself, she understood the importance of instruction and that it would be unwise to learn foreign subjects on her own. She borrowed a belt, holster, mag pouches, and a pistol from the instructor. She had zero complaints about any of the equipment, because it was all new. Meanwhile, other students were blaming their equipment for their own deficiencies. At the end of the day, she had improved more than other students, some of which had claimed to have "shot for years."

    If you're willing to learn, you will.
    If you're unwilling to learn, you won't.

    Simply being in attendance doesn't mean you will learn.

  9. #9
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I think the issue has more to do with mindset.

    I retook an introduction pistol class that goes fundamental shooting, nothing more. In the class was a lady in her 50's who had never fired a pistol prior to the class. She was the teacher of one of the instructor's children and a family friend. She approached the instructor one day, who is in law enforcement, and asked for him to teach her how to handle a pistol, because she had seen the uptick in shootings and wanted to learn to defend herself in her home if needed. As a teacher herself, she understood the importance of instruction and that it would be unwise to learn foreign subjects on her own. She borrowed a belt, holster, mag pouches, and a pistol from the instructor. She had zero complaints about any of the equipment, because it was all new. Meanwhile, other students were blaming their equipment for their own deficiencies. At the end of the day, she had improved more than other students, some of which had claimed to have "shot for years."

    If you're willing to learn, you will.
    If you're unwilling to learn, you won't.

    Simply being in attendance doesn't mean you will learn.
    Thatís can be said for many other things as well. When I got into motors at work I had never ridden a motorcycle before. I had no bad habits and no preconceived notions. I think it made my training quicker and easier. A funny thing that happened to me that would never happen now was the first time I rode on an actual street, and not a parking lot , was when they gave me the motorcycle to take home. It was a long nerve racking ride and as would be my luck, it started flooding. LOL.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOTOR51 View Post
    That’s can be said for many other things as well. When I got into motors at work I had never ridden a motorcycle before. I had no bad habits and no preconceived notions. I think it made my training quicker and easier. A funny thing that happened to me that would never happen now was the first time I rode on an actual street, and not a parking lot , was when they gave me the motorcycle to take home. It was a long nerve racking ride and as would be my luck, it started flooding. LOL.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Motorcyles and water don’t mix lol

    Getting back to the original point about concealed carriers, the big issue is that most people attending the CHP course have the misbelief that the course is training. It’s not training in the slightest. It’s a qualification course.

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