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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by southerncanuck View Post
    I'll chime in on this as a newer shooter, but one who is fairly deeply invested in both sport and self-defence aspects of shooting. I for one desperately want more training. I love getting my ass kicked, I love a steep learning curve, I love being around experts, and I love being coached. I want to try competition one day maybe if I can. I want to be able to defend my family instinctively and confidently.

    For me, the biggest hurdle is the large time blocks required by off-the-shelf courses. I have time to train, and I go to the range at least once a week, but that's only about a two hour commitment (30 mins each way, hour at the range). I've found a bunch of great courses but most are weekend affairs and thus inaccessible for logistical reasons. I was just reading a book by the founders of KR Training in Texas and something they said in the book resonated with Dave's comment here. I'll copy it below:

    More than a decade ago, KR training converted most of the courses it offers into 3- and 4- hour blocks designed as a series. Teaching everything someone needs to know in a 4-hour class is an impossible task. Consequently, the burden is on the instructor to prioritize skills in their course design. The competition for course time is comprised of family and job responsibilities, other interests, and, of course, dollars. The reality is that more people can spend 4 hours, $100, and 200 rounds on a Saturday training class than there are people who can spend $500, 20 hours, and 1,000 rounds on an all weekend course.

    I actually had this highlighted in the book, because I would kill for something like this within driving distance here in LA: a series of sequential shorter classes over a month or two. For someone like me, there's a big gap between supply and demand for accessible training locally -- we don't really have anything between "Pistols 101" and "Commando Camp Weekend" (that I can find easily, at least). Since I can't commit to a full weekend course, other than one-on-one instruction by the hour, I'm basically relegated to a LOT of reading, a lot of videos, dedicated drills at range time, and loads of dry fire practice. It's not about money or willingness, it's just about availability.
    I think FRC in BR has a similar program of shorter (and cheaper) classes. You should look into it.

    I also want to add that what you are doing is great, but it doesn't replace instructor-led classes. Practicing something from a video/book/internet is good, but it's hard to self-judge if your form is good or if you are making mistakes that you aren't aware of.

    Another benefit of the longer classes is that you end up training under more stress and pressure. An 8 hour class of all-day drilling is definitely an all-day affair, but a lot can come from it, across different spectrums.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by southerncanuck View Post
    I'll chime in on this as a newer shooter, but one who is fairly deeply invested in both sport and self-defence aspects of shooting. I for one desperately want more training. I love getting my ass kicked, I love a steep learning curve, I love being around experts, and I love being coached. I want to try competition one day maybe if I can. I want to be able to defend my family instinctively and confidently.

    For me, the biggest hurdle is the large time blocks required by off-the-shelf courses. I have time to train, and I go to the range at least once a week, but that's only about a two hour commitment (30 mins each way, hour at the range). I've found a bunch of great courses but most are weekend affairs and thus inaccessible for logistical reasons. I was just reading a book by the founders of KR Training in Texas and something they said in the book resonated with Dave's comment here. I'll copy it below:

    More than a decade ago, KR training converted most of the courses it offers into 3- and 4- hour blocks designed as a series. Teaching everything someone needs to know in a 4-hour class is an impossible task. Consequently, the burden is on the instructor to prioritize skills in their course design. The competition for course time is comprised of family and job responsibilities, other interests, and, of course, dollars. The reality is that more people can spend 4 hours, $100, and 200 rounds on a Saturday training class than there are people who can spend $500, 20 hours, and 1,000 rounds on an all weekend course.

    I actually had this highlighted in the book, because I would kill for something like this within driving distance here in LA: a series of sequential shorter classes over a month or two. For someone like me, there's a big gap between supply and demand for accessible training locally -- we don't really have anything between "Pistols 101" and "Commando Camp Weekend" (that I can find easily, at least). Since I can't commit to a full weekend course, other than one-on-one instruction by the hour, I'm basically relegated to a LOT of reading, a lot of videos, dedicated drills at range time, and loads of dry fire practice. It's not about money or willingness, it's just about availability.
    Prior to switching gears, VATA offered a lot of what you seek. Phobos Solutions and Advantage Group are still holding courses regularly. Phobos has been out at MCTA and Advantage Group is between places, sometimes at a private range near Hammond and sometimes in Baton Rouge at FRC. You will also find courses at FRC from basic courses to sims in the shoothouse.

    Outside of a weekend course I took with VATA, most pistol classes revolve around fundamentals. There are a lot less tactics involed in these classes than people want to believe. You have to learn to crawl before you walk. Walk before you run. If new shooters sign up for some high speed class they are jumping into the deep end with lead weights around their ankles. It will be nothing more than tactical larping and ammunition being wasted.

    As a civilian who only carries a pistol for self defense, I want to learn all there is to pistol shooting. That involves taking tactics based courses as well as the *boring* fundamentals classes. Everyone wants to shoot a lot of ammo really fast thanks to Magpul Dynamics DVD’s and the wonderful world of YouTube, but they are not willing to or can’t find the time to get to that level of proficiency.

    I didn’t buy into a shot timer until it had been recommended to me by multiple competitive shooters as well as having used them in multiple defensive courses. They are an invaluable training tool. They can make a short day on the range with limited ammunition much more beneficial than burning up a few mags at paper with no purpose.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I didn’t buy into a shot timer until it had been recommended to me by multiple competitive shooters as well as having used them in multiple defensive courses. They are an invaluable training tool. They can make a short day on the range with limited ammunition much more beneficial than burning up a few mags at paper with no purpose.
    I have a shot timer but didn’t buy it to compete only to benchmark some specific things I was working on and to push myself.

    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.

    All that to say training can add some pressure and putting numbers on a clock can add more pressure which is a good thing. Learning to work under pressure and have that rush of a feeling, recognize it, drop back to the fundamentals and work through it usually means a favorable outcome.

  4. #34
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tboy View Post
    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.
    One of my favorite training lines came to me from Steve "Yeti" Fisher. It was:

    "Slow is steady. Steady is fast."

    When I'm training, I always try to keep that in mind ... that it's better to start slowly and get the motions right, and then to practice those movements many times. The speed will come slowly without sacrificing the accuracy.

    Of course, that also requires the self-discipline to relax one's ego.

    Mike
    ΦΒΚ. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tboy View Post
    I have a shot timer but didn’t buy it to compete only to benchmark some specific things I was working on and to push myself.

    I had organized a class for a group of young guys 17-21 and at the end of the day we did a friendly game of shooting bowling pins. Once on the line and the timer went off one of the young guys fell apart due to the stress. He drew the pistol, promptly dropped the mag, racked the slide, popped in another mag pointed at the pins and went click. After a few seconds he regained composure and finished the pins off.

    All that to say training can add some pressure and putting numbers on a clock can add more pressure which is a good thing. Learning to work under pressure and have that rush of a feeling, recognize it, drop back to the fundamentals and work through it usually means a favorable outcome.
    That little timer makes people panic.

    I don’t compete, but I keep track of performance. I like knowing that I can shoot better than I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaleighReloader View Post
    One of my favorite training lines came to me from Steve "Yeti" Fisher. It was:

    "Slow is steady. Steady is fast."

    When I'm training, I always try to keep that in mind ... that it's better to start slowly and get the motions right, and then to practice those movements many times. The speed will come slowly without sacrificing the accuracy.

    Of course, that also requires the self-discipline to relax one's ego.

    Mike
    I won’t discount Steve, because what he’s saying has some merit, but Fast is Fast. If you want to shoot fast, you need to be fast. Chasing numbers will frustrate you, so work on things you hate. Realistically, every concealed carry should be working on strong hand only and support hand only shooting. The possibility of shooting with a single hand is high.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinBR View Post
    Don't you two have each other on ignore or did I have a good dream?
    This^ was funny enough for me to log in just to say so!
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by southerncanuck View Post
    I want to try competition one day maybe if I can.
    You should! It is not only very demanding, but is also a kick in the ass!

    PM beauxdog and see when they are practicing. Then join in. I promise, you will not regret it!
    Remember; The 2nd Amendment Protects the 1st!
    Lyndon Johnson (Democrat & Father of US Welfare System) we'll give them stuff........."and have them ni&&ers voting democratic for the next 200 years!"
    "I'm a self reliant, self supported American trapped in a "Free Shit" society!"
    Be Warned! Amazon.com is Skynet!
    PLEASE STOP USING GOOGLE!
    I don't believe in a supreme deity; but have to believe Trump's win was Divine Intervention!

  8. #38
    Donít troll me bro!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor View Post
    This^ was funny enough for me to log in just to say so!
    Yeah, we’re all just rolling over here
    Doesnít play well with TROLLS...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor View Post
    You should! It is not only very demanding, but is also a kick in the ass!

    PM beauxdog and see when they are practicing. Then join in. I promise, you will not regret it!
    If anyone is in the BR area, FRC runs small practice matches every Tuesday night. There are usually ten or more shooters there. Beauxdog and the folks at FRC are good people.

  10. #40
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
    I won’t discount Steve, because what he’s saying has some merit, but Fast is Fast. If you want to shoot fast, you need to be fast. Chasing numbers will frustrate you, so work on things you hate. Realistically, every concealed carry should be working on strong hand only and support hand only shooting. The possibility of shooting with a single hand is high.
    I think we're violently agreeing.

    His point (or, at least, his point as I interpreted it) is that when you're training, you start slow and steady, so that you can properly develop the motions. With practice, the speed will come.

    Mike
    ΦΒΚ. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

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