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  • DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
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    You mean my response?

    If those people went in their house for 2 minutes while the police passed by, none of that would have happened.

    If that’s the hill they want to die on, so be it.

    That is exactly like saying "If she had not worn that short skirt she would not have been raped".


    Can anyone here honestly defend that type of behavior?
     

    AustinBR

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    15   0   0
    Oct 22, 2012
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    That is exactly like saying "If she had not worn that short skirt she would not have been raped".


    Can anyone here honestly defend that type of behavior?

    I don't know that it's really comparable.

    If the city that this event happened in was under a curfew order where everyone needed to be inside, would it not be lawful for police to get everyone inside? I was under the impression that is why this happened. I could be wrong, though.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    163   0   0
    Dec 31, 2013
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    Hammond, Louisiana
    That was my point he had nothing to gain from talking **** to the police. And the police had nothing to gain from ordering him into his house. I believe if they had properly assessed the situation they would have gave him the ‘go F**+ yourself’ and continued to focus on the task at hand.

    The cameraman/commentator had the opportunity to de-escalate the situation by obeying the potentially (still not going there) unlawful order and taking it up with the police chief/sheriff, mayor, attorney, etc. instead of on his from porch with a bunch of meat-eaters.
    one always has the opportunity to comply, bow down, obey, surrender, mind their own business and watch tyranny and excessive force take place in front of their home without saying a word. Doesn’t always mean they’re required to by law. None of his behavior warranted any of the wrongful actions of the swat team. They were acting outside of the law, he was not. Ultimately he was forced to comply and he did take it up with his attorney and the courts. I haven’t heard a judgement yet as I don’t believe there has been one, but if anyone’s taking bets my money is on the civilian.
     

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
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    New Orleans, La.
    I don't know that it's really comparable.

    If the city that this event happened in was under a curfew order where everyone needed to be inside, would it not be lawful for police to get everyone inside? I was under the impression that is why this happened. I could be wrong, though.

    Bovine Scatology!!!!!!

    In the video posted people were fired upon while filming from their windows.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Sarah_Mojarad/status/1266633046591078400?s=09
     
    Last edited:

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
    2,313
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    New Orleans, La.
    I don't know that it's really comparable.

    If the city that this event happened in was under a curfew order where everyone needed to be inside, would it not be lawful for police to get everyone inside? I was under the impression that is why this happened. I could be wrong, though.

    In the video where they were on the porch. . . . , You are saying, as an attorney, the the approiate force is to shoot at someone breaking curfew by being on their own front porch? Are you really justifying that?
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    163   0   0
    Dec 31, 2013
    9,396
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    Hammond, Louisiana
    That is exactly like saying "If she had not worn that short skirt she would not have been raped".


    Can anyone here honestly defend that type of behavior?

    I don't know that it's really comparable.

    If the city that this event happened in was under a curfew order where everyone needed to be inside, would it not be lawful for police to get everyone inside? I was under the impression that is why this happened. I could be wrong, though.

    Do you think if there were a curfew people would be breaking the law by being on their porch or in their backyard? What about out on the balcony or patio? What if you’re in the garage with the door open? Are you ok with shooting paintballs at them if they’re hanging out of an open window getting some video? I’d be willing to bet the reason someone decided to ‘light ‘em up’ is because they felt the porch dwellers were not respecting their authority.
     

    Jack

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    40   0   0
    Dec 9, 2010
    8,602
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    Covington
    Plenty of blame to go around, but you may not be so holier than thou when you consider the so called "Peaceful" protestors provided ample cover for the criminals to run unabated!

    This sounds a lot like gun control to me. People shouldn’t exercise their freedoms because some bad actors take advantage of that freedom to do evil things.
     

    AustinBR

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    In the video where they were on the porch. . . . , You are saying, as an attorney, the the approiate force is to shoot at someone breaking curfew by being on their own front porch? Are you really justifying that?

    ...I'm not an attorney?

    But I will play devil's advocate: If the curfew states that one cannot be outside during the hours of X to Y and the penalty for being outside during those hours is arrest. If someone is outside during those hours and refuses to go inside, then they can be arrested. It sounds like (again, I've only seen the video) the police tagged the potential curfew-breaking-citizen with a paint marker round to identify them at a later time if they were seen again. This would show that they were warned not to violate curfew twice.

    I'd argue that everyone has a right to be on their property. But if the police are telling you to go inside for your safety and to ensure theirs while they deal with real criminals, what's the sense in arguing? Go inside and play along. If rights were violated, that's what the courts are for. But there is no benefit to be had by going inside.

    As for people who had their windows shot at with paint rounds - admittedly I didn't see that video. But that sounds like a cop being a jerk and a situation that can be taken to the courts.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    I don't know that it's really comparable.

    If the city that this event happened in was under a curfew order where everyone needed to be inside, would it not be lawful for police to get everyone inside? I was under the impression that is why this happened. I could be wrong, though.

    What does a curfew order have to do with private property?

    You lost me on that one Bruh....
     

    Gator 45/70

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    Do you think if there were a curfew people would be breaking the law by being on their porch or in their backyard? What about out on the balcony or patio? What if you’re in the garage with the door open? Are you ok with shooting paintballs at them if they’re hanging out of an open window getting some video? I’d be willing to bet the reason someone decided to ‘light ‘em up’ is because they felt the porch dwellers were not respecting their authority.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbebjUYItKw
     

    AustinBR

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    Do you think if there were a curfew people would be breaking the law by being on their porch or in their backyard? What about out on the balcony or patio? What if you’re in the garage with the door open? Are you ok with shooting paintballs at them if they’re hanging out of an open window getting some video? I’d be willing to bet the reason someone decided to ‘light ‘em up’ is because they felt the porch dwellers were not respecting their authority.

    I think I addressed this in my above post, but to clarify I'd break it into two groups:

    1) Physically outside in front of house, facing street. This puts citizen at greater risk to harm and increases potential number of potential bad-guys for police to deal with. I'd argue that during a curfew you can legally be told to not be there.

    2) Not physically on street side of house. Inside. Back yard. Behind window. I would argue that citizen is at lesser risk of harm and being in way of police. Cops shooting paint rounds at people in this group are likely dicks abusing their power.

    Option 1 needs to go inside.
    Option 2 needs to file a lawsuit against said officers.

    Both options really should just stay inside and stay safe.
     

    AustinBR

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    What does a curfew order have to do with private property?

    You lost me on that one Bruh....

    1) Being in your front yard during a curfew where everyone needs to be inside is breaking the law.

    2) Protesting on your street or on adjoining streets and then running to your home, or someone else's home to claim "being on private property" doesn't work either.

    Regarding number two, that's a tactic that protestors have used before. They have been up to no good and then run to private property to claim that they are not breaking the law. Running to private property and hanging on the porch = getting tagged with paint markers by police.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    1) Being in your front yard during a curfew where everyone needs to be inside is breaking the law.

    2) Protesting on your street or on adjoining streets and then running to your home, or someone else's home to claim "being on private property" doesn't work either.

    Regarding number two, that's a tactic that protestors have used before. They have been up to no good and then run to private property to claim that they are not breaking the law. Running to private property and hanging on the porch = getting tagged with paint markers by police.

    What happened to good old water cannons?

    6 police offices shot in the last 24 hrs, Paint balls ain't diddly squat, Time to break out the big guns!
     

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
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    New Orleans, La.
    ...I'm not an attorney?

    But I will play devil's advocate: If the curfew states that one cannot be outside during the hours of X to Y and the penalty for being outside during those hours is arrest. If someone is outside during those hours and refuses to go inside, then they can be arrested. It sounds like (again, I've only seen the video) the police tagged the potential curfew-breaking-citizen with a paint marker round to identify them at a later time if they were seen again. This would show that they were warned not to violate curfew twice.

    I'd argue that everyone has a right to be on their property. But if the police are telling you to go inside for your safety and to ensure theirs while they deal with real criminals, what's the sense in arguing? Go inside and play along. If rights were violated, that's what the courts are for. But there is no benefit to be had by going inside.

    As for people who had their windows shot at with paint rounds - admittedly I didn't see that video. But that sounds like a cop being a jerk and a situation that can be taken to the courts.


    If someone was on their front porch, and a group walking down the street fired upon them, even with paint ball guns, would they be justified in returning fire?

    I apologize. I thought you were an attorney. My memory is getting addled by age, apparantly.
     

    AustinBR

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    If someone was on their front porch, and a group walking down the street fired upon them, even with paint ball guns, would they be justified in returning fire?

    I apologize. I thought you were an attorney. My memory is getting addled by age, apparantly.

    "A group" really is a broad term.

    If a group of 8 year olds is messing around on the street with paintball guns and fires some off in one's direction...absolutely not.

    In this case, it was a group of police. They were clearly identifiable as police. They gave a clearly identifiable lawful order to go inside. Upon not following that order they fired what appeared to be paint marking rounds. They could have also been pepper-rounds with the intention to induce compliance, but I don't know if that's the case.

    This video is only showing a very limited subset of time. How do we know what these guys were doing before the video started?

    Is it possible that they were up to no good before running to the porch and claiming refuge on private property? I don't know. Do you?

    All I know from the video is that they were told to go inside and they didn't. The police have a tough enough job dealing with all of the morons destroying stuff. Why make their job even harder?
     

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
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    New Orleans, La.
    snip . . . They gave a clearly identifiable lawful order to go inside. . . .

    The order was not lawful. They were on their own property.

    When the police break the law, they are no longer police, but an angry mob. Their authority is limited by the Constitution. They have no powers beyond that.
     

    DAVE_M

    _________
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    32   0   0
    Apr 17, 2009
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    The order was not lawful. They were on their own property.

    When the police break the law, they are no longer police, but an angry mob. Their authority is limited by the Constitution. They have no powers beyond that.

    Sorry, but if it was during curfew, it was lawful...

    It is unclear if the video was taken before or after curfew. A FAQ document posted by the Minnesota Department of Public Safety says that individuals can be on their porch during curfew but says people must listen to officers' orders.

    "If a law enforcement officer or other public safety official asks you to go inside, or take any other action, you must follow the instruction," the document said.

    The curfew for Minneapolis and Saint Paul is in place starting at 10 p.m. Tuesday until 4 a.m. Wednesday. Tuesday from 10 p.m. to 4 a.m.
     

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    23   0   0
    Jul 27, 2008
    2,313
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    New Orleans, La.
    You mean my response?

    If those people went in their house for 2 minutes while the police passed by, none of that would have happened.

    If that’s the hill they want to die on, so be it.

    That is exactly like saying "If she had not worn that short skirt she would not have been raped".


    Can anyone here honestly defend that type of behavior?

    No, it’s not even close.

    Explain.

    The people on the porch were not breaking any law. You say that if they had just retreated inside for two minutes, their rights would not have been violated. If she had not dressed in a provocative manner, she would not have had her rights violated.
    Same same.
    It's blaming the victim, for in this case I assert that they were the victims of a crime perpetrated by men in a police uniform.


    Is it your position that one has a duty to retreat when faced with an inequity? Is it your habit to back down from a bully? I hope not.


    I know that it is not in my nature. I was raised on the writings of people like Henry David Thoreau. We stand for what is right, or nothing at all.


    That is why I joined the Army. That is why I volunteered to go to war, and transferred to a unit that was mobilizing. I wanted to take a stand against tyranny. I wanted to stand aginst a bully.

    In the Army, we learned from My Lai. We were taught, nay it was pounded into us, the concept of unlawful orders. We were instructed not to obey any order that was unlawful.


    If the police lack that discipline, they should not hide behind kevlar and a shield, for that is not where their authority eminates from.
     
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