10mm carbines?

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  • Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    My comment was in regards to the unnecessary length and weight of a pistol caliber carbine when there are a ton of options in a pistol caliber *pistol.* It didn’t really have anything to do with the purpose of the gun. Pistol caliber ammunition is typically designed around short barrels and even bunny fart 9mm can reach out to 100 yards. For fun factor, suppressing it makes sense. Suppressing a 16* carbine makes for a long firearm. So that again brings us back to pistol caliber pistols.

    Most people I know with PCC’s either use them for competition or bought them before adjustable braces existed.
    Oh!!! I get it now. It was a rhetorical question. My bad. I sincerely thought you sounded like all the people asking why anyone needs an AR15. You know, like, ‘why do you need an AR 15? I don’t see why anyone needs an AR assault rifle.’ I must have completely misread that.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Oh!!! I get it now. It was a rhetorical question. My bad. I sincerely thought you sounded like all the people asking why anyone needs an AR15. You know, like, ‘why do you need an AR 15? I don’t see why anyone needs an AR assault rifle.’ I must have completely misread that.

    What's rhetorical about it?

    I just wonder why anyone would want a pistol caliber in a rifle.

    This is a pistol. I still don't know why anyone would want this as a rifle. What do you gain by having a 16" barrel?

    maxresdefault.jpg
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Here’s just a taste of the difference barrel length might make in a 9mm barrel. It depends on bullet weight and load, but the difference in a standard size pistol (4-6 inch barrel?) and a carbine might be more than you think, depending on the round you choose. 200+fps is a significant increase. Many people who shoot steel can attest to noticing a speed difference in rounds sent downrange simply by the report of the firearm and the ringing impact on steel and the time in between. I’m sure we can all tell the difference. The difference between my 1911 10mm and my AR pistol is definitely noticeable and the latter is not a full length barrel. I’m only familiar with the difference because I do a lot of shooting through a chronograph, sometimes out of curiosity, others creating and testing handloads. Many times I will load a 44 mag or 357 completely different for a carbine than for a handgun just to exploit the difference in barrel length

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
     

    DAVE_M

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    If we go all the way back to the Colt SMG, it's just like every other SMG, a short barreled pistol caliber rifle. The only disadvantage to owning a pistol caliber SBR is the tax stamp. Pistol braces are a hard argument against paying the man for a tax stamp. At one point, there were no factory PCC type pistols with a brace, so you had to make due. That's how a friend of mine ended up with a KRISS Vector that has the 16" barrel and massive handguard/cover. Then it was offered with a brace and the first thing he said was "man, I wish I waited."
     

    DAVE_M

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    Here’s just a taste of the difference barrel length might make in a 9mm barrel. It depends on bullet weight and load, but the difference in a standard size pistol (4-6 inch barrel?) and a carbine might be more than you think, depending on the round you choose. 200+fps is a significant increase. Many people who shoot steel can attest to noticing a speed difference in rounds sent downrange simply by the report of the firearm and the ringing impact on steel and the time in between. I’m sure we can all tell the difference. The difference between my 1911 10mm and my AR pistol is definitely noticeable and the latter is not a full length barrel. I’m only familiar with the difference because I do a lot of shooting through a chronograph, sometimes out of curiosity, others creating and testing handloads. Many times I will load a 44 mag or 357 completely different for a carbine than for a handgun just to exploit the difference in barrel length.

    You can also shoot hotter loads and gain that 200+ fps, so I don't see that as an advantage. Speaking of which, what does added velocity gain? I don't think the OP is hunting with a 10mm PCC. He hasn't stated he has plans to.

    I have no issues with anyone buying what they want, but when someone asks for suggestions, it's not out of the ordinary for someone to recommend something that is different.
     

    dwr461

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    so who makes a decent 10mm carbine?
    ar style ones available?

    ive read of Beretta cx4 storm and marlin camp rifles modified for 10mm, but i havent kept up with the 10mm offerings in some time.

    So now we know basically everyone’s opinion. Hope that helps.

    Dave


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    You can also shoot hotter loads and gain that 200+ fps, so I don't see that as an advantage. Speaking of which, what does added velocity gain? I don't think the OP is hunting with a 10mm PCC. He hasn't stated he has plans to.

    I have no issues with anyone buying what they want, but when someone asks for suggestions, it's not out of the ordinary for someone to recommend something that is different.
    And what if you shot those hotter loads from a longer barrel? I don’t know what a perceived advantage has to do with people buying, building or shooting what they want. I guess I’m wondering what was your true heartfelt purpose for asking why. If someone decides to tell you why they buy something I imagine their reasons would be based on their beliefs and preferences. If they share those and you seek to discredit their beliefs or preferences, what would be your reason for doing so when you could simply state your personal beliefs and preferences as reasons for choosing not to buy, build or shoot the same gun. I didn’t see your statement as a suggestion of what to buy or not buy, and the fact that you say you don’t have issues with what people buy is hard to dismiss. So if you ever wonder about the negativity you experience from anyone here over your ‘suggestions’, there’s some food for thought.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I don’t know what a perceived advantage has to do with people buying, building or shooting what they want.

    The OP asked about 10mm PCC's. Ironically, pistol caliber pistols with braces are called "PCC Pistols." The OP can buy whatever he wants. We don't even know what his budget is, so we're simply making suggestions and having a discussion. Is that okay with you?

    I guess I’m wondering what was your true heartfelt purpose for asking why.

    Objectively, when you weigh the pros and cons, I see no benefit in a velocity increase. So you or someone else can educate me on why that's objectively important or simply give me a subjective answer such as "because merica!"

    If they share those and you seek to discredit their beliefs or preferences, what would be your reason for doing so when you could simply state your personal beliefs and preferences as reasons for choosing not to buy, build or shoot the same gun.

    I am not seeking to discredit anything. I am seeking to have a discussion.

    I didn’t see your statement as a suggestion of what to buy or not buy, and the fact that you say you don’t have issues with what people buy is hard to dismiss. So if you ever wonder about the negativity you experience from anyone here over your ‘suggestions’, there’s some food for thought.

    And that's the problem. Your bias. You don't like me and everyone here knows it. It doesn't bother me, but it detracts from the discussion when you continually believe everything I post has some subliminal meaning that I'm out to get you. If you take issue with that, discuss things with the Admins and Moderators here. I've spoken my peace and have no desire to argue with you about me.

    If the NFA were abolished and SBR's didn't require a permission slip, I would be willing to bet a lot of people would have short barreled rifles, pistol caliber or not.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Oh Dave. I’m not biased. I don’t like you and I’m sure people know why, I’m sure you know why. We’ve discussed this as far back as when you were creeping on me about my address. Your behavior on here is why. You’ve earned it. I don’t mind if people here know. It’s sad that you think I’m picking on you but that’s just the way it is. Action and reaction. I don’t think you can fool anyone here into thinking you don’t regularly take jabs at me. If you’d just put me on your ignore list we wouldn’t tie up so much wavelength. I was genuinely content not seeing any of your posts for quite some time. Deny whatever you want to save face here, I don’t care. Your name calling posts can be deleted but it doesn’t change things for me. We’ve discussed this in detail via PM so stop acting like there’s some mystery about why I don’t like you. This is all a big show for others here. They can make their own assessments, I don’t speak for them and I’m not going to try to influence them.
    What I can do is this. Promise to never ever address you here again. And that’s exactly what I’m gonna do. Put you back on the old ignore list so I won’t even be tempted to reply to you and continue the drama. Hope that helps. I really do.
     

    jdindadell

    Not Banned!!!
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    I never said the Gibbz was better than any other, I don’t have a NFA upper and I don’t recall comparing it to any other upper or kit. Did I? I only said the Gibbz setup is definitely worth checking out. When I built mine I had to search and do a lot of homework and there wasn’t a whole lot out there to choose from, but with about 4K trouble free rounds to date, I’d say it’s a win. If someone was curious where to start, my post might help steer them in a good direction.
    Did I read your post wrong? Did you read mine wrong?

    I figured that you did some research and that I could pick your brain. I had a look at their site before I posted but the info was lacking.

    4k and no issues, that is good longer term info for mental records.

    I "ended up" with the NFA upper due to a trade. It was mated to a NFA lower that had the buffer tube threads machined at a slight downward angle, causing issues with the bolt carrier. NFA's "solution" was to send me a new upper, a side charger, and that "fixed" the issue. I ended up swapping the buffer tube and that actually cured the issue, I thing the original NFA tube had a slightly too small ID.

    I did like the side charging NFA upper, but the regular upper with the LRBHO is good to go with glock mags.

    Piecing together a ar45 is still a bit of a crap shoot. The wolfpack 80% lower is very nice, and should be for the price. I am planning to try a juggernaut tactical lower, as those look to be the best. I have a variety of ar9 lowers, and those can be hit or miss.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and usage info, that is what makes this board worthwhile! And the occasional pissing match!!!!
     

    jdindadell

    Not Banned!!!
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    My comment was in regards to the unnecessary length and weight of a pistol caliber carbine when there are a ton of options in a pistol caliber *pistol.* It didn’t really have anything to do with the purpose of the gun. Pistol caliber ammunition is typically designed around short barrels and even bunny fart 9mm can reach out to 100 yards. For fun factor, suppressing it makes sense. Suppressing a 16* carbine makes for a long firearm. So that again brings us back to pistol caliber pistols.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    Point being, with all the choices we have, I don’t see the point of a long barreled pistol caliber firearm other than meeting legal requirements in other states.

    I don't see the point of the heavy long PCC either.

    No worries.

    With a 6* barrel and pistol ammunition, you’re not *losing* anything like you are with a super short barrel and rifle ammunition. The added length doesn’t really *help.* If I’m going to wield something the size of a musket, it might as well be a rifle caliber.

    That’s what I was getting at, but apparently that offended some people.


    No offense to me, as I agree that the size/weight of the vast majority of blowback PCCs make them undesirable to use over a 223 ar pattern rifle. And the 223 pattern gun can be made lighter than a blowback ar pattern gun.

    The PCC pistols with brace make sense to me, as stated.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I agree with this wholeheartedly.

    I don't see the point of the heavy long PCC either.

    No offense to me, as I agree that the size/weight of the vast majority of blowback PCCs make them undesirable to use over a 223 ar pattern rifle. And the 223 pattern gun can be made lighter than a blowback ar pattern gun.

    The PCC pistols with brace make sense to me, as stated.

    For the sake of discussion, if someone can elaborate on why a full size PCC is objectively superior to a braced short barrel *PCC Pistol* then we might get somewhere. It could help the OP make an informed decision.

    Both are fun, no one is arguing that. I just don’t see any reason to buy an oversized pistol caliber rifle. Maybe if someone was looking for something specifically like the Marlin Camp 9, but with modern AR PCC’s the pistol makes more sense. It also makes more sense for something like the KRISS Vector, which is actually offered in 10mm.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    163   0   0
    Dec 31, 2013
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    Hammond, Louisiana
    I figured that you did some research and that I could pick your brain. I had a look at their site before I posted but the info was lacking.

    4k and no issues, that is good longer term info for mental records.

    I "ended up" with the NFA upper due to a trade. It was mated to a NFA lower that had the buffer tube threads machined at a slight downward angle, causing issues with the bolt carrier. NFA's "solution" was to send me a new upper, a side charger, and that "fixed" the issue. I ended up swapping the buffer tube and that actually cured the issue, I thing the original NFA tube had a slightly too small ID.

    I did like the side charging NFA upper, but the regular upper with the LRBHO is good to go with glock mags.

    Piecing together a ar45 is still a bit of a crap shoot. The wolfpack 80% lower is very nice, and should be for the price. I am planning to try a juggernaut tactical lower, as those look to be the best. I have a variety of ar9 lowers, and those can be hit or miss.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and usage info, that is what makes this board worthwhile! And the occasional pissing match!!!!
    Haha! I think I **** just fine all by myself.
    I was searching for info on building a AR pistol in 10mm and saw an article on the Gibbz upper parts and had to look around to get the barrel, upper receiver, handguard and bolt. I really don’t remember who I got what from but I wanna say the entire top end was from one source and I got the billet lower from another. I was building a couple of 9mm AR’s at the same time so I’m a little fuzzy on where I got what. I do remember reading that the Frontier lower was a perfect match to the Gibbz upper and can’t remember the forum I was on (shamefully) but there was a lot of good info there. That lower will support a 45 top end and mags as well. The gun runs great but the biggest surprise is the accuracy. I just run a vortex Sparc dot on it and shoot small targets (clays and such) at up to 100 yards pretty easy from a rest. One of my buds shot it and said I should scope it, lol. If I was gonna build another one, it would be disappointing if I couldn’t find the same parts.
     
    Last edited:

    shrxfn

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    For the sake of discussion, if someone can elaborate on why a full size PCC is objectively superior to a braced short barrel *PCC Pistol* then we might get somewhere. It could help the OP make an informed decision.

    Both are fun, no one is arguing that. I just don’t see any reason to buy an oversized pistol caliber rifle. Maybe if someone was looking for something specifically like the Marlin Camp 9, but with modern AR PCC’s the pistol makes more sense. It also makes more sense for something like the KRISS Vector, which is actually offered in 10mm.

    Most people I see with full-size PCC are usually competition shooters or have to buy something like full size to comply with state laws. Maybe longer barrel better accuracy for competitions.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Most people I see with full-size PCC are usually competition shooters or have to buy something like full size to comply with state laws. Maybe longer barrel better accuracy for competitions.

    I’m aware. Since this forum is based in Louisiana and there are no such laws I didn’t make that point. I don’t believe there are laws prohibiting them in Mississippi or Texas either. The *maybe better accuracy* is along the lines of what I was asking for as objective discussion about full size PCC’s.

    I’m not sure if there are rules governing the type of PCC used, such as the rules that govern other divisions.
     

    troy_mclure

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    If I want a pistol I'll get a handgun, not a bulky shortstop ar. I like the full size carbine because many pistol cartridges benefit from the velocity increase. Both 9mm and 10mm very much so. With a pistol carbine I can cast and load a wide range of ammo that work for both the handgun and carbine.
    Plus I just like the way they shoot.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If I want a pistol I'll get a handgun, not a bulky shortstop ar. I like the full size carbine because many pistol cartridges benefit from the velocity increase. Both 9mm and 10mm very much so. With a pistol carbine I can cast and load a wide range of ammo that work for both the handgun and carbine.
    Plus I just like the way they shoot.

    What’s your budget?
     

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