These people are Lawyers?

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  • Emperor

    Seriously Misunderstood!
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    11   0   0
    Mar 7, 2011
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    I have no doubt that if I am ever involved in a shooting among other aspects of the aftermath I would have gun owners on forums picking it apart and even claiming it was a bad shoot.

    I am looking for some of you that have all the training and knowledge to give advice on how to handle this specific instance the couple were faced with.

    OR: Is this just a situation you can't give say what to do, but criticize what was done?

    Any advice on what I should be carrying daily in my vehicle, assuming I have a place to keep it and not just leave it in my car?
    Choice of weapon?
    How much ammo?

    I have my opinions, but I'm not the expert here. Seriously, I am asking you guys to share that knowledge.

    Judging by the lack of answers to your query, I would surmise there are not many members on here that have the expertise you seek. I could be wrong, but unless they are riot police, SWAT, or possibly MP's; there may not be that expertise here. Sounds to me like you are trying to find out what the trigger is to employ self defense tactics if necessary. If you want to know the truth, I think most people (me included), are afraid to test that threshold. I suppose you will know when you feel like you are pushed to the ultimate decision, but we have been and are being conditioned by the corrupt politicians, the corrupt media, and the legal system to just succumb to a mob; let them take your stuff, beat you, and set your house or business on fire because they are protesting the injustices of a corrupt system. You, the hard working and law abiding tax paying American are the problem! As if self defense (a tenet of being an American), is taboo.

    Recently, both USCCA and US Law Shield did live webinars concerning these riots and what your legal recourse may be if you are caught up in them. Basically, the gist of both was; make sure you have all your T's crossed, and your I's dotted. Neither offered specific ways to fight your way out of imminent danger nor advised for it or against it. You knew what they were trying to say even though they didn't actually say it. You may be able to see those on their respective websites.

    Now I will tell you in no uncertain terms that I am not an expert on what you want to know, but I often think about the scenario similar to these two in St. Louis, or if I am in a car caught in the middle of that BS. I often think back about the couple that got brutally beaten by those animals at the gas station in Scotlandville a few years back too. I have my own considerations and thresholds, but I can promise, unless a riotous horde catches me by surprise, I ain't capitulating!

    FWIW: I have a G-19 that only leaves my body while I am actually driving my vehicle; and it is in a specially designed holster in my cup holder during that only. I take it out when I exit the truck no matter how insignificant the task or how short the stop may be! It is milliseconds away from full draw in my vehicle. I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in the drivers side door at my feet. I have full mags of Hornady critical defense ammo in both weapons, and two fully loaded spare mags in Sticky mag holders on my forward console. I have a box of regular 9mm ammo in the console too.

    Hope that helps, but that's just me. ;)
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Sure I’m just not interested in picking apart there reactions to $hitty circumstances. It just feels like going after their tactics is reminiscent to making fun of the mentally deficient.

    Heres what I assume to be a well educated guy (he’s an attorney after all) and he thought a glorified gate operator was sufficient to ‘protect’ his community from the roving hoards that have plagued St Louis? That’s my problem with his security plan in a nut sack. ;)

    That's a shame. It's the picking apart reactions to $hitty circumstances that allows good training to occur. "Going after their tactics" is an important part of any good quality training. It's important to list the sustains and the improves.

    It's not the ideal method obviously , but it seemed to work this time . There is no doubt in my mind that if they had cowered behind the curtains peeking out the windows , things would have probably gone a lot worse for them . That being said , what would YOUR response had been to these savages ? Educate us .

    I disagree and I offer that neighborhood as proof. Unless all of the neighbors were also outside yelling at the protestors as well, things should have gone worse for them, according to your speculation. But you didn't hear about the neighborhood burning down. So it seems to have gone just as good/bad for the guy outside with the gun as it did for the neighbors sitting in their houses.
     

    Bangswitch

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    That's a shame. It's the picking apart reactions to $hitty circumstances that allows good training to occur. "Going after their tactics" is an important part of any good quality training. It's important to list the sustains and the improves.
    My thoughts are how do I put myself in a position to not let those kinds of scenarios take place. Had things gone pair-shaped it wouldn’t have mattered how well they were trained it wasn’t going to end well without reinforcements.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    My thoughts are how do I put myself in a position to not let those kinds of scenarios take place. Had things gone pair-shaped it wouldn’t have mattered how well they were trained it wasn’t going to end well without reinforcements.

    It's good to plan on how to not end up in that situation. But reasonable people realize not everything is within their control and they would do well to plan for situations they have not chosen for themselves. So, again, going over the improves and sustains of their actions is a valid means of training and preparation.
     

    Bangswitch

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    It's good to plan on how to not end up in that situation. But reasonable people realize not everything is within their control and they would do well to plan for situations they have not chosen for themselves. So, again, going over the improves and sustains of their actions is a valid means of training and preparation.

    But again if this were a full on siege and they were using the house for cover it would be moot. They were lucky on so many levels. The outcome of this event Only leaves us opportunities to argue over the what if’s. Seems I’ve heard smart people on here discourage that in the past.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    But again if this were a full on siege and they were using the house for cover it would be moot. They were lucky on so many levels. The outcome of this event Only leaves us opportunities to argue over the what if’s. Seems I’ve heard smart people on here discourage that in the past.

    Any practical training contains scenario based training. That's essentially "what if" training. No matter how you phrase it, evaluating the sustains and improves from any situation can only serve to help those evaluating the situation. You seem to want to argue that nothing productive can come from looking at what they did right and what they did wrong but that's just not the case.
     

    Request Dust Off

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    It's good to plan on how to not end up in that situation. But reasonable people realize not everything is within their control and they would do well to plan for situations they have not chosen for themselves. So, again, going over the improves and sustains of their actions is a valid means of training and preparation.

    Positive outcomes reinforce bad tactics.
    So I totally get why nit picking needs to be done. Just because something works out does not mean it was a good idea.

    I just don't get into victim blaming and throwing other gun owners under the bus.
     
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    Bangswitch

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    Any practical training contains scenario based training. That's essentially "what if" training. No matter how you phrase it, evaluating the sustains and improves from any situation can only serve to help those evaluating the situation. You seem to want to argue that nothing productive can come from looking at what they did right and what they did wrong but that's just not the case.
    I get scenario based training and I get using situations that went pairshaped to learn from. My point is some say use the house to protect yourself others say well you might get burned out, both are good points, my point is have you **** together so that you can avoid those scenario if at all possible. I don’t find evaluating this scenario in terms of their momentary tactics brings any value. And I believe it’s much easier for those of us who found their gun handling techniques atrocious Monday morning quarterback them.
     
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    cyclone1970

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    Well all of the points so far are well taken, but has anyone considered the 1950's Hollywood cowboys and Indians movies where the pioneer makes it to his house during an Indian attack? The fellow and his wife need to defend themselves against a bunch of attacking Indians. It seems there are three options. Go outside and shoot a few Indians before you get arrows in your chest, stay inside and shoot a few Indians before they set fire to your house and you have to escape outside only to be shot with arrows or rifles, and finally the US Calvary arrives to save your hide.

    Yes I am being tongue in cheek with this, but I have lived through the sixties and the current situation and it seems to me that we have never seen this in the US before. We are going to have to look at examples in other countries to learn how to generate good outcomes to this madness.
     

    Emperor

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    The "peaceful" protesters have threatened to amass at this guy's house again this weekend. I guess they are going to finish the job.

    According to some media, the guy tried to hire private security firms, and no one will take his offer. He called the St. Louis PD, and they said they cannot send a "special" detail. The threat by the "peaceful" protesters is apparently legitimate and the Republican Governor is hiding under his desk.

    My biggest letdown is there seems to be no lawful American gun owners around St. Louis willing to go to this guy's house and stand arm and arm with him. This exactly the scenario that scumbag democrat America haters hoped for. No militia coming to the aid of a fellow gun owner that was trying to protect his home from marauders!
     

    Bangswitch

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    The "peaceful" protesters have threatened to amass at this guy's house again this weekend. I guess they are going to finish the job.

    According to some media, the guy tried to hire private security firms, and no one will take his offer. He called the St. Louis PD, and they said they cannot send a "special" detail. The threat by the "peaceful" protesters is apparently legitimate and the Republican Governor is hiding under his desk.

    My biggest letdown is there seems to be no lawful American gun owners around St. Louis willing to go to this guy's house and stand arm and arm with him. This exactly the scenario that scumbag democrat America haters hoped for. No militia coming to the aid of a fellow gun owner that was trying to protect his home from marauders!


    If you lived within a reasonable distance would this be the guy you put you life on the line for? Before ‘they’ came for him he was for ‘them’.

    Call me a selfish dick if you want, but I’m not a cop (probably would fail the psych anyway) because I’m not willing to put my life on the line to protect people who hate me for a living. Why should I do it for free? It’s the same reason I believe we should walk away from the shitshow that is Afghanistan.

    What tactics would be best used during the coming siege?

    Personally, Im a fan of a tactical retreat in a shitshow like that.
     

    dantheman

    I despise ARFCOM
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    That's a shame. It's the picking apart reactions to $hitty circumstances that allows good training to occur. "Going after their tactics" is an important part of any good quality training. It's important to list the sustains and the improves.



    I disagree and I offer that neighborhood as proof. Unless all of the neighbors were also outside yelling at the protestors as well, things should have gone worse for them, according to your speculation. But you didn't hear about the neighborhood burning down. So it seems to have gone just as good/bad for the guy outside with the gun as it did for the neighbors sitting in their houses.
    It's easy to sit back NOW and say they were wrong . I asked what you would have done AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME . Savages at your property line , verbal threats of violence . Make a decision . What is it ?
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    It's easy to sit back NOW and say they were wrong . I asked what you would have done AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME . Savages at your property line , verbal threats of violence . Make a decision . What is it ?

    I can tell you I would certainly not stand out in the open yelling at people and pointing a rifle and/or pistol at people with that many people out there. From what I've seen, I'd be in the doorway or at the corner of the property or right inside the house at a point I could best observe the savages. No doubt a house like theirs has more than one door with one of them likely on the back side of the house. So they could watch the crowd, react to the crowd as needed, and have a means of retreat should the situation call for it.

    Do you think their actions represented the textbook reaction to the given circumstances?
     

    dantheman

    I despise ARFCOM
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    I can tell you I would certainly not stand out in the open yelling at people and pointing a rifle and/or pistol at people with that many people out there. From what I've seen, I'd be in the doorway or at the corner of the property or right inside the house at a point I could best observe the savages. No doubt a house like theirs has more than one door with one of them likely on the back side of the house. So they could watch the crowd, react to the crowd as needed, and have a means of retreat should the situation call for it.

    Do you think their actions represented the textbook reaction to the given circumstances?
    I don't think anybody would argue that their actions were " textbook " .
     

    tallwalker

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    If you lived within a reasonable distance would this be the guy you put you life on the line for? Before ‘they’ came for him he was for ‘them’.

    Call me a selfish dick if you want, but I’m not a cop (probably would fail the psych anyway) because I’m not willing to put my life on the line to protect people who hate me for a living. Why should I do it for free? It’s the same reason I believe we should walk away from the shitshow that is Afghanistan.

    What tactics would be best used during the coming siege?

    Personally, Im a fan of a tactical retreat in a shitshow like that.

    Completely understand the sentiment. For now there is that luxury. Don’t worry though, when they keep coming they will eventually get around to you as well. Ultimately there will be “for” and “against” without much thought to social semantics.


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